Zugg Software :: View topic - Death of SWG

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:16 am

Wow, I'm shocked. I haven't had much time to play games lately. Tonight I logged in to play Star Wars Galaxies after several months of absence. I couldn't believe my eyes...

Sony decided to totally revamp the entire game, apparently just within the past 2 weeks. All of the old classes are gone. I got converted to a new "profession" and found that I couldn't even use any of my previous weapons. I was now a combat profession, but with no weapons. I bought a starter weapon and went to try their new "faster action combat" system. What a piece of crap!

They have totally destroyed this game. At one time, SWG had the most interesting skill-based system since Ultima Online. Now it's just a shooter with no depth. It's no surprise that thousands of players are cancelling this game.

I just cancelled my account too.

However, I wasn't playing much anyway, so it's no huge loss to me. What is amazing to me is that any company would do something like this. If they wanted to create a shallow Star Wars shooter game online, why not make a new game...why piss off all of your existing customers by changing the existing game so dramatically. Especially when they already made dramatic changes just 6 months ago to supposedly "fix" the game.

It's clear that Sony is just floundering and have no idea what to do with Star Wars Galaxies. While they might get a few new "kids" to play the new game, I guessing that we will see it drop like a rock over the next couple of months. Companies like Sony need to learn that you can't just jerk around customers like this. You can't let people invest for a couple of years in a character and then totally throw that character away in just a couple of weeks. Sony doesn't seem to understand at all the "role playing" part of MMORPGs. You can't just trash a character that someone has role played for a year and totally revamp a game that some people have made into their home.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone in charge of a Star-Wars based MUD to see if their subscribers start to increase. It would certainly be a really great time to advertise Star Wars MUDs to people who have gotten totally disgusted by what Sony has done to SWG.

Unfortunately, the biggest benefactor of this is likely to be World of Warcraft. Wow seems to be going the opposite direction of Sony...Blizzard seems afraid to touch anything. Bugs that were in WoW 6 months ago are still there. And I'm still pretty bored by it.

Well, MUD players can rejoice that these huge MMORPGs are having so much trouble. Between players leaving SWG out of rage, and players leaving WoW from boredom, MUDs are bound to benefit.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Yeah, Sony's a weird bunch. They keep on changing Everquest2 too, they did a massive 'combat revamp' a few months back which on the whole was good for my class because we sucked, but nerfed just about everyone else. They didn't quite go as far as deleting whole classes, though. That's pretty radical.

The other thing they don't get is how unforgiving we are, I mean even if they did a rollback, 90% of the people who quit wouldn't sign back up.

I recently bought City of Villains because of an EQ2 patch which nerfed my main, and they did roll it back, but I haven't played my main on EQ2 since then, and even though CoV is a bit same-y in content, it's a nice change of pace and a lot of fun. I don't think it'll hold my attention for as long as EQ2 has, but there's something awesome about being able to fly, summon zombies, and slaughter hero's (both in PvE and PvP against players from City of Hero's).

Beginner Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

SOE has become very complacent with customer attitudes lately, unfortunately. They just don't see the fact that what they're doing is killing their own product.

EQ, EQ2 and SWG I'm sure could be some of the best games out there if they'd actually listen to their clients. Unfortunately, in the real world. SOE is big corporation and doesn't care 2 bits what their clients want.

Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:47 pm

I just recently switched to a MMORPG called "Eve". With the cancellation of "Earth & Beyond" a few years ago, and now the death of SWG, EVE is about the only "space-based" graphical role-playing game.

When EVE first came out I wasn't very interested because it was a "pkilling" game. In other words, you were never safe. Someone could always kill you. I don't usually like games that allow this. I am only a very casual player and only play a few hours a week, so I can never get good enough to defend myself against the power-gamers.

Well, it turns out the EVE is much better than I thought. It has "safe" areas that are patrolled by security (guards) and it's basically suicide to kill someone in these areas. It can still happen, but it's very rare.

And EVE has incredible depth in it's skill system. You learn skills in real-time, so even when I'm not playing my character is learning a skill. This is great for casual gamers like me. There is also a lot of loot, which I love, and the economy of the game is better than anything I've seen before (it's a real economic simulation with incredible depth and detail). And the graphical eye-candy is also great.

So, EVE really seems to fit my style. It's not for everyone, and since the space battles are strategic and NOT arcade-based, it tends to attract an older crowd. Younger kids who want to fly ships with their joysticks wouldn't like EVE.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that EVE is developed by a company called CCP from Iceland. They are a smaller company and they really seem to have listened to their players over the past couple of years. Reminds me of the attention that Anarchy Online received from their developers. These smaller games are really doing well because these small companies actually listen to their players. It's a lesson that the big companies like Sony don't seem to be getting.

It's really like "night and day". Downloading the EVE client, signing up for an account, and getting into the game took a very short amount of time. *very different* from the huge time it takes to get into EQ2 or WoW, applying huge patches and dealing with slow and cumbersome account systems.

In fact, as a developer, I'm really impressed by the quality of the EVE game client. The way it is able to start up, log in and get into the game so quickly is amazing. And when you quit, it quits nearly instantly! None of the other big MMORPGs can do this so efficiently. These guys really know their stuff. It's refreshing for someone like me who respects quality.

Unfortunately, we all know that the general public doesn't care as much about quality or even gameplay. Sony and other big companies can spend a fortune on advertising and still get enough players to run a bad game, while the smaller companies write better games but deal with a smaller audience. Just another indication of the sad world that we live in. I'm happy that "MUD games" tend to fit into that smaller niche where the players are a bit more savvy than the standard WoW or EQ player.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:13 am

I've been kind of eyeballing Eve lately--it really does look like a good game. Unfortunately, I just haven't had time this last semester, and sadly, I won't most of this coming year (well, not sadly I suppose. I'm heading off on a study abroad program in Taiwan till next August ;)

I've avoided WoW (I've seen other people kill their grades/change majors because of that game) and other MMORPGs like the plague because of the time investment needed mainly, but if Eve is a game that you can play and enjoy without spending so much time playing, I'll have to recommend it to some friends of mine.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

I've added EVE to my 'next MMO to play when I get bored' list. A kiwi friend of mine also recently gave it good kudos, so having the both of you sayin' it's worth it means I'll definately be along soon.

I've always been partial to the space trader/bounty hunter games (and it was my childhood dream to make a MMO based in space) but I guess I'll just settle for playing a MMO based in space for now. Maybe when I'm a bit older and have won the lottery I will start on that project, heh.

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:57 pm

My boss has played EVE for quite a while but has recently decided to stop playing. Overall he has had nothing but praise for it but the reason he cites for leaving is that a high end character can gain nothing from the game unless they are into PvP, which he isn't. I find the same goes for WoW, I have a number of characters and only 1 is level 60 and I've stopped playing it because of exactly the same reason. The thing for me is the development of the character through a story thread but of course there are limits for this in WoW because really there are only 2 story lines, one for Horde and one for Alliance. I doubt very much that I will renew my subscription when it next runs out.

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:36 pm

Yeah, I used to be an Avid player of UO for years and years, but it's a dying game in my opinion. I also used to play SWG... Even after the NGE basically the totall Class/Combat update they did. I don't entirely like what they did to my smuggler... but my favorite part of the game is the space combat which they didn't change. I have heard about EVE and thought about playing it, but I'm also thinking about returning to SWG (have a few friends who still play). I also have a friend who has been trying to get my to play WoW since it started and I might give it a go. I have also loved games like Freelancer/X2/X3 and Classic games like Elite for those of us older players...

Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:35 pm

I played EVE at release (I even had to upgrade my computer to play it!) and it was by far the prettiest game I'd ever seen. I'd spend ages just flying around looking at stuff.

Unfortunately, there's not much else to do besides that, mining and playerkilling. Doesn't have much replay value.

WoW's also very much an acquired taste. There are 10-day guest passes floating around (for the expansion too) so you can try before you buy, so take a look :)

Magician Joined: 09 Oct 2003 Posts: 459 Location: USA

Blizzard has been hiring people for a next gen MMO. A lot of people are speculating that it is going to be a Starcraft based MMO, but it's still fairly unknown at this point. However, with Starcraft2 upcoming one can only hope that they'd pull from this franchise. It's also rumored that people going to BlizzCon this summer will be getting either a StarCraft2 or Diablo3 beta key.

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:01 am

If they did space combat (ala Eve, SWG, Earth & Beyond) then a StarCraft MMO would rock! But if it's just another universe to set a standard MMO, then I'll just have to say: "yawn". I'm not sure how many other new people they are going to get to play MMOs at this point. I'd bet they will just be sucking players from WoW. And it doesn't make a lot of business sense to pour a lot of money into a second game if the overall total subscriptions don't go up. Turbine learned this the hard way with AC1/AC2 (and I think Sony learned it with EQ2 as well).

I agree that there wasn't much high-end stuff to do in EVE if you weren't into PvP. The guild-based space wars were pretty incredible if you got into that kind of stuff. But for solo play, it eventually did get monotonous.

I hit the level cap in WoW and wasn't playing enough to really join a guild. High-end WoW is all about guilds and raids, and that's never been my big interest either. And apparently the Burning Crusades expansion really screwed up guilds and raids since it made all of the pre-expansion raid dungeons a waste of time. No guild is raiding an old dungeon when you can spend 10 minutes in Outlands and get a better set of gear than the pre-expansion raid rewards.

Speaking of new MMOs, in addition to the LOTRO that I've been enjoying, I finally took a look at Vanguard. Even though I have SOE, they apparently saved this game by buying Sigil and are putting a lot of work into fixing bugs and planning for a relaunch. There is a lot to like in Vanguard, even with all of the bugs. It feels a lot like what EQ2 should have been. *Huge* game world, and more solo stuff than EQ2 (so far). If they are able to fix the game and get it re-launched and get the subscriber rates back up, then I might look into a zExplorer map for Vanguard.

LOTRO was getting a bit monotonous after level 30 or so (although the new expansion has helped with that a bit). After the initial "Wow" (not warcraft) impression of the Shire area, none of the other areas are really that new or impressive. None of it is bad, but it just starts to get a bit generic. And every area seems to have their own "kill xxx wolfs/boars" quest that gets a bit tiring after a while. At the higher levels, getting a group/guild becomes more and more important, just like with WoW. It will probably be the same with Vanguard, but I'm still having fun at level 10, and I've only explored a very small area (2 "chunks") so far.

With the Age of Conan also coming out this year, it's looking like an interesting time for MMOs again (I'm ignoring Warhammer because I'm not the PvP type). I'll be wondering if the overall player base is going up, or if these new games just bring in players who are bored with WoW.

And I'm still playing MUDs too. At some point I hope to have time to start up my MUD Blog and forum area on this site. Then I can talk more about the differences between MUDs and MMOs and why I still enjoy playing both.

Wizard Joined: 15 Jan 2002 Posts: 1644 Location: USA

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:22 am

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:01 am

I know Simultronics is working on building a graphical MMO, I haven't kept up to date on the details, but they are at least decent with listening to their playerbase.

I doubt I will be playing that though, i prefer to play my text MUDs most of the time, and when i want the graphics i go to my game consoles or log into Second Life.

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:36 am

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:37 am

Iron Realms are working on an MMO as well. Battle of the indy MMOs! Twisted Evil

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:40 pm

Well the fact is most of these have players who do other MMOs as well much like MUDs have people who spend time on several MUDs, although they do tend to favor one or two.

Zugg himself has admitted to playing quite a few. As for me I gave up on them after EQ. They can be cool and fun but they are beasts if you're not grouping and I don't play often enough to depend on that. Plus for my playing style, I tend to be a loner anyway. At that point I should basically go back to the console or the MUD or the offline RPG, which is exactly what I do.

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:45 pm

There most certainly are! In March WoW had 8.5 million users worldwide (my earlier estimate was an exaggeration). There is definitely a market for MMORPGs, especially with groups that traditionally don't play videogames. I can think of plenty of older gamers, female gamers, and even more bizarrely, older female gamers, who play MMORPGs - the stats are much worse for any other kind of game.

A game that poached just 1% of WoW's userbase would be huge by anyone's standards and the total number of MMORPG players is definitely on the upturn as well.

I get a strange feeling of apprehension about IRE's offering. Matt has said many times that he has his sights set low for his game and anticipates a reasonable playerbase rather than a massive explosion. But if the game has solid systems and is interesting to play, given that it's free and designed to work well on low-spec systems and with a small initial download, I definitely think the game could be dugg or wanged and end up with a bad case of player overload.

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:41 pm

My worry is that is really easy to look at the big WoW numbers and see all the money and think "Gee, I should make an MMO too!". But there have also been some dramatic failures (Horizons comes to mind) where even a good-quality MMO can crash and burn and take an entire company with it. Sigil almost experienced this with Vanguard (and SOE still might). My main worry for Simutronics and IronRealms is that the resources needed to a good MMO will kill them. I just hope that they are treading very carefully into the MMO waters and realize that the chance for a failure in that market is higher than the chance of success. The kind of resources needed for an MMO (graphical artists, etc) are different than just for a big MUD. Just being able to run some large cluster of servers doesn't necessarily lead to a successful MMO.

Also, I think the market is really seeing a glut of products right now. I play multiple MUDs, but those MUDs are very different (e.g. Star Wars vs high fantasy). It's like playing EVE and WoW...two *totally* different games. But with EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, Vanguard all in the same type of fantasy setting, and with all of the new games using tried-and-true ideas and interfaces from the successful games that have come before, everything is starting to get a bit generic.

As I mentioned, the "newness" of LOTRO wore off once I was out of the Shire...then it became yet-another fantasy MMO. Vanguard is feeling a *lot* like EQ2. I don't know what Conan will bring to the table that is new, but it's also a high-fantasy setting. Then there is Lord British's Tabula Rasa...looks a bit different, but not by enough?

I just don't know how Simutronics and IronRealms think they can compete with this kind of stuff. In a way, they are making the same kind of mistake that I did when I decided to write an email client: they are going from the top positions in one market, to the bottom positions in another (albeit larger) market. That's a tricky gambit. They need to make sure they keep enough resources in their current MUD market to keep their leading positions so that they don't die if their MMO isn't a big hit.

Take a look at the list of MMO at www.mmorpg.com. That's a lot of games to compete with...and I wonder how many of those are successful from a business perspective. Each game need to consider why they are different than the others and why players would choose to spend their money on them. Free players will play anything, but when you start charging a monthly fee, then it gets different. If I'm spending $15 a month on a game, then it's going to be one of the top big games. I don't know what Matt is planning to charge, but a lower-end game is going to need to charge a *lot* less to attract players...and then does it make enough money to pay for the staff and hardware?

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:58 pm

I've been reading along with the development process of their MMO, and it's been quite interesting to watch. Matt certainly hasn't been suckered in by the megabucks that WoW is making - he has very modest goals and has spent the time setting them at a realistic level. He's often wont to say that he has the funding to run the game at a loss for at least a year. The basic game is most definitely going to be free - last I read the intention was to have both pay-for-perks and a subscriber system depending on preference. Either way, I'm sure that the decision's been very well thought-out and there's no danger of IRE crashing and burning if all doesn't go to plan. It sounds like the makers of Vanguard had their sights set too high.

But I'm not sure how big an impact graphics has. It's certainly an element, but it's offset by other factors. Impressive graphics needs impressive hardware, and that limits what users can do. The very best MMO would have graphics that scale very well, and from what I've seen of IRE's game, it's certainly looking very good on high-end systems but still coping at the lower end. I think that's very important when you consider IRE's current userbase who are used to text rather than graphics and often have computers to match.

And even then, MMORPGs aren't exactly stunners. WoW isn't a great-looking game by modern standards - it wasn't even at the time of release. Runescape isn't at all graphically focused and does well. The MMO format isn't really suitable for bleeding-edge graphics anyway - many of them need to draw hundreds of characters at once in large, open environments. Anyone who walked into Ironforge in the early days of WoW can tell you just how big a problem this is. There are so many other genres that can do impressive graphics so much better - I think MMOs attract a different kind of player.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Rorso. Small addendum:

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:00 pm

I think (and I'm sure many businesses will agree) that there's a fundamental flaw in that kind of producer-centric "good news to MUDs" logic. Consumers aren't a commodity that get stolen from one company by another - they'll play whatever games they enjoy playing best. If people enjoy playing graphical games more, them enjoying their time on Earth Eternal rather than your MUD isn't a bad thing.

The release of any MMORPG will have an effect on the number of MUD players that'll probably put some marginal games out of business. For the rest of them it's an incentive to keep producing the very best games they can - competition is what keeps the industry alive.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368