Zugg Software :: View topic

Apprentice Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 134 Location: USA

Ok so I have the WOW (world of warcraft) Interfact form www.worldofwarcraft.com

Just installed it today, so here is the problem. Now when I mouse over any of the (Chars, settings alias.... and the file edit view actions ect...) The game will minimize a tiny bit each time, untill its nothing but the top line in a tiny little square. I can then pull it back down to normal size, but same effect. I have rest the computer a few times and the app. Im not sure how else to explain it. Let me know if you need a SS or something. Thanks

Hope that makes sence.

Enchanter Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 698

Windowblinds and zMUD don't get along. Problem is just as you describe. Don't look for a fix anytime soon because the components zMUD uses are old and a fix would take more time than the developer has right now.

If you want WOW, zMUD will shrink. If you want zMUD to remain normal, you'll most likely have to uninstall WOW. Sorry.

Apprentice Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 134 Location: USA

Turns out that interface sucks bawls....

So you rite i removed it it worked fine. To much system lag anyway. Thanks kent

Apprentice Joined: 16 Dec 2002 Posts: 114 Location: USA

Windowsblinds has a "per application" exclusion/exception list btw. I use windowsblinds currently and have for a few years now. You can theme zmud, but not customize the docklets, so just add an exclusion for zmud.exe, provided you liked it and have the resources to back running winblinds :)

Beginner Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:32 am

It's not low-priced? I certainly have gotten my money's worth out of it.

Beginner Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:45 am

*shrug* Go ahead and write an App that's (I beleive) the most common on in it's field, upkeep it for, Jeebus, 7-8 years now, isn't it? and lemme know if you're gonna bust your ass to fix something cause by a program that plays around with stuff that is supposed to be remaining constant.

To me, WindowBlinds, being the program that's doing all the messing around, it the one that should be changed.

Beginner Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Apprentice Joined: 16 Dec 2002 Posts: 114 Location: USA

Xantha, chill. Yes, windowsblinds and zmud have had this problem for years. Guess what, I can name 40 other applications off the top of my head that still have the damn problems, some of them MICROSOFT products. Now last i checked, thats a helluva lot more expensive than the $30 that he now charges. Either way, there are ways of resolving the problem, just because you cant redesign the X _ and other buttons doesnt mean you should go bitchin about it. Its a damn good program, its still maintained, and honestly, for him to upgrade to the newer components would require a damn near complete rewrite because of how borland changed many of the components in delphi. I cant blame him for not wanting to go back and change it all.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:55 am

Get a grip people. zMUD uses "old" components so that it will be compatible with older versions of Windows, which lots of people are still using. There is no way I will ever support 3rd party utilities like Windowblinds. zMUD is meant to run on a standard Windows installation. If you take the responsibility to modify your Windows installation with something like Windowblinds, then you are also taking the responsiblity to use the *feature* of that product which allows you to add zMUD to it's exclusion list and to deal with any incompatibilities that it causes. There are lots of programs that don't work with Windowblinds...that's why they have the exclusion list.

And as I said, there is no way I'm going to update zMUD just to make it work with Windowblinds when it would mean either removing features, or making it incompatible with old versions of Windows. If this was some fancy program that needed Windows XP it might be different, but a *lot* of MUD players still use old versions of Windows, which is why they are playing MUDs and not some graphical online game.

Your comparisons are also totally off mark. I've maintained zMUD on ALL versions of Windows, ever since Windows 3.1 and have never not updated zMUD when Windows was updated (once Microsoft had time to fix their bugs that is). Most developers have abandoned old versions of Windows. I have not. And many people here appreciate that. So take your ranting somewhere else.

Beginner Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

No, my comparisons are right on the money here. Simply because you refuse to update a product effectively doesn't mean that they're not. Of course, you're going to say they aren't, it's your job to do so. however, you've failed to prove that they AREN'T.
When it comes down to it, something in one of your updates screwed up ZMud, pretty simple there. As a paying customer, you'd think you would show just a bit more respect than brushing it off like it's not a big deal.
YES, it's possible to simply "edit the exclusion list", HOWEVER, that doesn't show any sort of responsible programming, whatsoever. In fact, just the opposite is shown here by utilizing fossilized, older functions, rather than using the functions you SHOULD be using.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:27 am

Or you could try complaining to windowblinds that their software doesnt work with old components :)

after all, it is their flaw, not zMUDS.

zMUD is designed to connect to MUDs :P. Windowblinds is designed to change the look of certain software. If it doesnt change the look of software, its not that softwares bug, its windowblinds. WHEEEEEEE

Enchanter Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 698

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:15 am

You never replied to my proposition. Have you ever coded an application for any GUI? "cout << 'Hello World';" doesn't make you a programmer. I'm unsure on the specific architecture of zMUD, but I've written a damn good number of programs with OWL, and I'll tell ya what, anytime anything messes around with the window handlers, it causes problems.

You cited PHP. Fine. I defy you to find a single professional PHP script that won't run in a native environment. Of course, if you alter the environment, shait will fail. Same as if I decided to change 1st to 3rd on your stick shift. If you pull the rug out from underneath any coder working with a standard bad stuff will happen.

Wizard Joined: 15 Jan 2002 Posts: 1644 Location: USA

I am not gonna waste my breath(well typing) trying to explain fully why zmud uses older components so Ill ask you this, ho many other programs do you have where you can completly change the layout of the windows and even lock certain windows on top (and MS windows docking has a lot of bugs Does that mean your gonna stop using Windows or just paying for it?) As it stands zMud is extremely powerfull and it just wouldnt be "economicly viable" for zugg to spend a great deal of time re-writting that part of the Zmud code for the <2% of users that have windowblinds and just cant live without it or accept adding it to the exsclusion list.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:38 pm

Bitching that zmud don't work with windowblinds and those other progs like it, and being told that you need to do something to fix it, is like saying that it's Zuggs fault that you can't mud after you install a firewall that blocks your connection to your mud.
POINTLESS
as zugg said, zmud is set to work on a computer with no bells and whistles (except for the stuff needed for the mapper)
YOU added something to your computer.
YOU do what you need to fix it.

Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:47 pm

I probably shouldn't even bother continuing this thread. This guy isn't going to be happy no matter what we say.

But in case other people are interested, the "old component" that causes trouble with WindowBlinds is the component responsible for adding the roll-up/down, stay-on-top buttons to the window caption bar, and part of the window docking system. Windows does not support these features. Skin programs, like WindowBlinds, let you define your own bitmaps for the window caption bar, the close button, maximize button, etc. But since the rollup and stay-on-top buttons are not standard Windows features, there is no way for programs like WindowBlinds to "skin" them. There isn't even any way for WindowBlinds to know that these buttons exist in zMUD at all.

zMUD simply paints these buttons on the caption bar, intercepting the normal Windows NCPaint message. And then responds to clicks in the appropriate places on the window. When you have another program trying to paint the window (like WindowBlinds) then there will be complications and things won't look right. That's been the main problem for a long time with WindowBlinds. There is no way for them to fix it because there is no way for WindowBlinds to know that zMUD has added this stuff to the caption. And there is no way for zMUD to support WindowBlinds without removing these extra buttons, which are important features for a lot of people.

This is one of the many compromises involved in writing software. The person complaining about all of this clearly has never dealt with a large complicated user interface and with trying to support thousands of customers with different needs. There is no way to please everyone. There will always be a decision that effects a certain set of customers. I try to please the majority of customers, and I try to focus on what zMUD is intended for, which is playing MUDs. It doesn't matter if zMUD doesn't "look right" with WindowBlinds when it still works fine.

Now, the specific issue with the window shrinking is a fairly new problem. This didn't happen with older versions of WindowBlinds, so they have done something wierd in the newer versions. It's certainly possible that this is something that can be fixed in the future. But it's equally likely that this is a WindowBlinds problem. But this kind of issue goes on the bug list like everything else and gets prioritized. As a business, I have to look at the amount of time and effort it would take to add a new feature, or fix a bug, and balance that against the side effects it might have on the rest of the program, and the pay off in terms of new customers.

When it comes to WindowBlinds, the amount of work needed to fix it is large, and the number of customer that would benefit is very small. So it's just not a good business decision. If I lose a couple of customers because of this, it's not a big deal. On the other hand, adding something like spellchecking is something that a huge number of customers have been wanting for a long time. So clearly that kind of work gets the priority. Especially when there is a simple workaround for the customer (adding zMUD to the exclusion list). It's not like this problem prevents you from using zMUD or causes a crash or something.

Come back in 10 years after you have supported a software product across 6 different versions of Windows and answered hundreds of email each day for those 10 years and get a customer base of more than 60,000 users. Then we can talk. If you think Zugg Software doesn't support it's customers, then you obviously have not been around here for very long. And there is a huge difference between programming for fun (or for a hobby) and doing it as a business over 10 years, which is why zMUD still undergoes active development while most MUD clients do not.

Apprentice Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 134 Location: USA

Well I started it, I would like to end it. I agree 100% with everything said here buy zugg, and others. Zmud is beyond what I want in a program. I think its amazing its its still around, most every other mud client I knew dryed up or stopped updating.

My two cents who realy cares if it works with the stupid thing I dled. At first I was just worried that I broke zmud, or it was some sort of bug. Once I removed it and and ran Zmud again and it worked, I was like great. Zmud DID run with it. Some other stuff I had did not work at all, LOL even Foxfire was having issues. So I dont care enough about how it looks, so long as it runs.

My last tired thought, Zugg and everyone who has test, and played with everything to make this product what it is today should get nothing but love! This program is a testament to how something should be done, I have used it sence I was like 13, and as long as I can I will continue to use it.

Sorry this thread turned into what it did, thought there was a button to push to make it all better LOL, and way its locked now, oh Hmm I cant seem to lock it. Well I constider it finished.