Zugg Software :: View topic - Unfortunate things regarding Cmud and Zugg

Wanderer Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

Ok, in the interest of being an honest and maybe more meaningful pain in the butt i'll clarify things now that i'm a little more cooled off and thought about it.

I'll admit I can "afford" to get Cmud if I find it worth getting.

I agree that his original pricing structure on updates wasen't viable in the long term.

And I have to say that this comment:

Wizard Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 1113 Location: USA

Your personal attacks are completely unwarranted, especially since I'm betting that you have not been in his situation yourself. I think that what he is asking is more than fair here, and Zuggsoft is most definitely not going to become the next Microsoft. You pay $20-30 for a good product and you're going to begrudge him the fee for a totally new product? He is even taking our ideas, discussing them with us, and incorporating the ones that make sense into the application. I'd challenge you to find anyone else who can offer you this level of support for the same price.

No one is forcing you to upgrade, or even to use zMUD. You make the choice to upgrade (after seven years?!?) to the innovative new product or you trudge along with your trusty current product.

Moral fortitude? Please. How about a little appreciation for the effort he puts into the software?

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:36 pm

1) zMUD has been a business for over 8 years. It stopped being a hobby when I started working on zMUD full time in 1998. I've discussed the business aspects in many other posts and in my New Years letter, so I'm not going to repeat myself here. The bottom line is that zMUD *is* a business and the free upgrade model no longer supports the business. I'm not "greedy for money", but I *do* need to pay my bills and support my family, and zMUD isn't doing that right now. CMUD isn't zMUD, but nothing I say will convince you of that until you try it. I'm not just changing the name and charging for it, I'm making *significant* changes and enhancements that were not possible to do with zMUD to maintain compatibility with older versions of Windows and with existing zMUD scripts. When I said that upgrades for zMUD would be free, I *never* promised that I'd continue making upgrades forever. 10 years for a single software product is a *long* time.

But there will be plenty of people like you who will never be happy about this. Fortunately, the vast majority of people are excited and looking forward to CMUD and I just had to realize that I can't please everyone. So I'm trying to please the majority and will just have to deal with the minority that are unhappy. It's not like I'm taking zMUD away from you are forcing you to upgrade.

2) This is standard software practice. No company gives discounts or free upgrades for people who bought their software 10 years ago. The reason for providing discounts for people who have bought zMUD recently is to ensure that people feel secure continuing to buy zMUD even though a new product is planned. People don't have to wait for the new product...they can buy zMUD now and get the free upgrade.

3) Sorry you feel this way. You can go read the older post in the zMUD Discussion Forum from last August where I took a poll of people's feelings regarding a "zMUDXP" product (which later became CMUD). You will see that you are in the minority.

Yes, I probably should have never made the "free upgrade" promise 10 years ago. Yeah, it's easy to look back in hindsight. But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all. I can't support my family with a product that doesn't bring in enough money. In either of these cases you don't get any future versions of zMUD. At least with the path I have chosen, people who are interested in something better than zMUD can get a new product.

Wanderer Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

"But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all."

uh, should I be thanking you? I suggest you hire someone to do your PR with your new income.

Wizard Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 1113 Location: USA

Wizard Joined: 03 Mar 2001 Posts: 1127 Location: London

Might I just offer the alternative announcement to CMUD if everything went as you wished, Lasivian:

"Dear zMUD Users,
Zuggsoft is not receiving enough money to survive. I will have to now seek alternative means to make a living. zMUD 7.21 will be the final release and all support and future upgrades will cease from this point forwards. Sorry guys, but I'd hate to break a 10 year old promise and would prefer to withdraw the product entirely"

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:11 pm

I am not to bothered about not getting any more free upgrades Zugg did a good job at providing them so far and i deffinatly got my moneys worth, and i probably use it more than my os since i have to buy a new one every year Twisted Evil

but i am happy to buy the new CMUD when its ready because Zmud has been so good and so cheap for what you get.

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 873 Location: USA

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Wanderer Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

Perhaps i'd be happier if new functionality were added that I benefit from.

However right now the existing zmud isn't living up to my needs, so while i'm looking for fixes along comes the fact that zmud is going EOL, and here comes cmud that ALSO isn't going to have the capabilities I need.

Along with the fact I find it a true pain in the butt to be told "you can pay for upgrades every 2 years", that's nice, glad the product is going to need to be fixed based on a clack not based on need.

*shrug*

Wizard Joined: 03 Mar 2001 Posts: 1127 Location: London

Only functionality you've mentioned is having zmud suddenly develop remote access properties. Perhaps if you let us know exactly what features you're missing then Zugg will try and include them. Or is it that you're sulking now and just claiming the product doesn't work right because you're in a mood?

*shrug*

Site Admin Joined: 29 Sep 2000 Posts: 389 Location: USA

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482

I will say what i have to say on this. I also purchased zmud back in the day and might have some input here.

He feels much the same way i do in a certain regard. WE (Those who purchased the product long ago when zmud wasnt a big market) supported the product in the beginning) helped fund the beginning of zmud.

I myself have purchased at least 4 zmud licenses, zmapper and a couple of his other products. ZMUD was given under the premise of a free upgrade. Having been one of the founding payees of ZMUD itself i would have expected that there would have been some thanks for getting this going, Due to zugg's policy of free upgradability you will recieve C-MUD at zero cost but you will be responsible for the first upgrade fee when your first version license is expired. (Circa 2008). That is what i would have expected from ZUGG regarding his policy. This effectually thanks the people who helped the business get going (not that 50% off isnt a discount) just that all people who purchased after X get it for free so if i hadnt helped him by purchasing a product which at the time needed funding badly i would be getting the product for free.

I personally am OK with paying the fee because i have no choice. Its either that or hold onto an out of date piece of software with no upgrades coming in the future. I would have been excited had i learned that ZUGG had decided to phase out his 10 year old promise by offering the first run of the new software with 0 cost and payable upgrades in the future.

I know that may sound wrong but i TO SOME degree understand how he feels. We helped get this product going with early purchasing. Its like telling the guy that started with your company on day 1 thanks but the guy that just got hired is getting the bonus. He'd be pissed too.

I would have like to have seen it go this way.

ANNOUNCEMENT

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:00 pm

What need isn't being met? Discuss the need, in all likelihood if it is a legitimate need that others can see a use in it may find it's way into CMUD.

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:12 pm

As regard to the payment issue I've purchased zMUD a couple of times and for all I know I may qualify for the 50% version of the product. I can tell you this though, I will be paying for a full version of CMUD.

Why?

Because since finding out about zMUD and browsing these forums I can see that Zugg Software is being run by a decent, caring and thoughtful human being. Zugg shares his business problems with his customers rather than hides them, he does his best to keep us happy while at the same time make a living. For this I will support him in anyway that I can for as long as he is in business, which I for one hope is for a long time to come.

Site Admin Joined: 29 Sep 2000 Posts: 389 Location: USA

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:00 am

The issue of the 50% discount going to more recent users instead of the longtime users is also pretty simple to understand:

The people who bought zMUD a *long* time ago have gotten the most value for their money. They've gotten the most free upgrades. So they've already benefited the most. People who have bought zMUD more recently have gotten fewer upgrades and therefore deserve a price-break because they were expecting free upgrades and didn't get as many.

As I already said, it's also standard practice to give discounts to more recent customers. Everyone does this. It's called "upgrade protection" so that you don't spend money on something right before it is upgraded and then screwed having to pay for it again right away.

If anything, giving a 50% discount going back so far is unheard of (we are talking about 7 years here, which covers about 80% of existing zMUD users). Most companies would give free upgrades to people who bought the old product within the last couple of months and wouldn't do anything for previous users. So I already think I'm being pretty generous here.

Also, saying that you are upset because CMUD doesn't add anything new (or doesn't add the feature you want) is just plain silly since we are talking about a product that hasn't even been released yet and you really have no idea what CMUD will have. Also, as people have mentioned, I always listen to polite suggestions from people on features to add. Most of the features ever added to zMUD were suggested by customers, and CMUD will be handled the same way.

Of course, the worst way to get your feature added is to be abusive and rude.

Wanderer Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

"The people who bought zMUD a *long* time ago have gotten the most value for their money."

And we were also the first ones to throw our hard-earned dollars at you. We trusted in your beginnings when you didn't even have your own website, now we just get treated like we're the longest-term leechers.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

I wasn't going to dignify this topic with a response, but it seems to have gotten out of hand.

Seriously guys, give Zugg a break. If he doesn't charge for upgrades, then he will go out of business. No business means no zMUD, no CMUD, nothing. It means we'll all be swapping to tintin++ or mushclient or something. End of story.

I can't believe you are whining over a measily $20 that you paid many many years ago. MMORPG's charge close to that to play for just one month. If you consider that zMUD has been with you for a minimum of 6 years and you have been using it to play online games over those six years (and probably had more fun using it than you would on WoW, EQ, or any of those games), $20 is $1056.40 less than the fee you would have paid for those 6 years of online gaming. If you consider that the going rate for a 'year' of online gaming these days is $179.40 ($14.95 a month) then two years of CMUD gaming should cost you $358.80 but he's not asking anywhere near that. He's asking for the equivalent of 2 months of online gaming, and you get updates bundled for two years - an exceptional deal by today's standards.

And FYI since 1998 I've purchased 4 copies of Zmud (more if you count the copies I bought as gifts for friends), 2 copies of zMapper, and a copy of eMobius (which never got released) and do you see me complaining? No. I'm with Taz on this. I will be purchasing the full priced version of CMUD regardless that some of my registration codes are eligable for the 50% upgrade price. I am happy to pay 2 months worth of online gaming every 2 years to keep my CMUD up to date.

$29.95 = 2 months of online gaming
$29.95 = 3 days worth of lunch
$29.95 = half a meal at a nice restaurant
$29.95 = a taxi ride home after a night with the boys
$29.95 = a round of beers for the boys
$29.95 = 2 dvd's
$29.95 = half an xbox 360 game
$29.95 = an older computer game on special
$29.95 = half a tank of petrol
$29.95 = 10 bottles of spilt milk... and it's certainly not worth crying over spilt milk :p

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

Greeting Lasivian,

You seem like quite an unhappy fellow. I should truly be just as upset as you, I first purchased zMud on November 19, 1999 for the astronomical sum of $25. I have since used that same license for months of enjoyment. In fact, I have about 31 day logged in on my most recent MUD and I have only been playing there for 6 months. I of course am not upset even though I many reasons to be.
1. I like helping other in these forums...where Zuggsoft to go out of business then I would not have this wonderful forum.
2. It doesn't stop there even, I also did a pretty large rewrite and some on going work on the help file for zMud.
Again just looking to be helpful to those like yourself.
3. I have actually, since 1999, purchased another 13 licenses for zMud and officially gave one to some whiner. Then Zugg wisely got a gifting system working.
4. Oh yeah, and somewhere along the way I felt that all that didn't even cover the value I had thus far payed for. I gave Zugg a very nice late Christmas present one year, sometime I really should meet him.
5. Hours and hours of beta testing, you might be surprised just how long it takes to track some bugs down to specific enough circumstances so that a programmer can fix them.
6. My name is even in the credits for zMud.

I am most definitely not upset. The policy and agreement was for free upgrades and you said it yourself, this is a rewrite. The policy never guaranteed that there would be upgrades in the future. There was even a very solid likelyhood that Zugg wouldn't have made it beyond the first 2 years, but here Zuggsoft is. I like the new policy, I like even that it may cause some to refuse to buy. As I see it, Zugg never broke his promise to me or anyone else that purchased zMud. His integrity remain perfect, his and Chiara's support of products remain unequalled, and my satisfaction remains well over 100% for every single penny I have payed to them.

Wanderer Joined: 25 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

Rainchild, i'm glad you're rich enough that you don't have to control your spending habits and you can waste money on things like that.

Not all of us are nearly so lucky, hence I mud rather than play WoW.

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

I'm sorry I'm so self centered that I'd rather see all you old guys (even though I'm one of those 'you old guys') pay for a new product which will be way better than zMUD rather than see Zugg go find a deskjob and cease working on MUD products at all.

As you stated with your Microoft example "You no longer find it on product keys of 2003 and you shouldnt find it on VISTA either because the software cycle was notified and ended with XP series." Which is what Zugg announced. zMUD 7.21 is the end of the zMUD series if you like.

Does Microsoft give free versions of Windows Vista to the people who bought DOS in the dim dark days? No. So why should Zugg give free versions of CMUD to the people who bought zMUD in the dim dark days? I mean sure, I wouldn't complain if Zugg gave me a free copy of CMUD because I supported him back in the old days, but I don't feel I deserve it, and I certainly don't believe it is my right to demand one.

The bottom line is - you paid for zMUD. You got a long long ride from zMUD 1.0 (or wherever you hopped on the wagon) through to zMUD 7.21 and now the ride has ended. You can keep using zMUD 7.21 for as long as you want, there's nothing to stop you from that. Just the same way that some people are still running Windows NT4, or Windows ME, or even Windows 3.11. They _could_ buy Windows XP if they wanted it and it's their decision not to if they don't.

So keep using zMUD, nobody's forcing you to upgrade. You can take that plunge at any point you want to, or keep running zMUD forever, it's your choice.

To put it back in a gaming perspective... when Sony released Everquest 2, they didn't even offer a discount to Everquest 1 players to 'upgrade to the new version'. It was a new product (even though it shared a lot of similarities), you had to buy the full priced retail box. The same can be said for just about every other product on the market. Quake 1, 2, 3, 4. No upgrade path. Tomb Raider 1, 2, 3, 4, ... how many are there? Regardless, no upgrade path. Same goes for all sorts of things ... can't upgrade your CRT to a LCD for free. Can't upgrade your car for free. Can't upgrade your xbox for free. Can't upgrade your ipod for free. Can't upgrade your jeans for free. Can't upgrade your RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU, etc for free.

It's no different here, CMUD is a new product (even though it will have similarities with zMUD), and so it's time to buy a new product. And some people are lucky that they are getting free or half price upgrades, because really Zugg doesn't have any requirement to offer them besides his generosity and onging 'fair go' nature despite everything people have been saying about him in this thread.

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:50 am

Geez edb6377, I'm completely disappointed in your response. But you do what you want.

The reason Chiara made her post is because we are OPEN and HONEST about what is going on. We are not Microsoft, and we are not some big company with a bunch of lawyers writing customer service agreements or contracts. We are two people...a small family business dedicated to improving MUDs for everyone and to make them as fun to play as other high-profile games. Many of our customers have paid for zMUD BECAUSE we have always been as honest as possible. We don't hide behind some business front. Yes it's a business, but there are many people we have interacted with in these forums that we consider close friends.

I'm sorry that our honesty turned you off. Hopefully when CMUD is released and you have cooled off a bit, you'll come back in the future.

And yes, most "businesses" would have deleted this thread the instant it was posted. The fact we have kept it around and have responded to it with honestly is just the way we prefer to work. Perhaps in this case this is a lesson that maybe I should have deleted the post if it causes someone like you who has provided very useful feedback in the past to get upset and leave. I'm sorry to see you go. But I stand by the statements that myself and Chiara have made in this forum.

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482