Zugg Software :: View topic

Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:37 pm

I decided to start a couple of threads on various licensing issues.

As I mentioned in one of the other threads, I haven't yet promised that all versions of eMobius will be free (free upgrades) like I did with zMUD. Before I do this, I want to collect opinions from other people. I consider the people currently reading this forum as real core customers and want to make sure that I an not losing that valuable type of user with eMobius.

So, think back to when you bought zMUD...was the fact that upgrades were free, forever a big factor in your decision to buy zMUD? Is the free upgrade policy a big factor in providing help in these forums to other users (or as Gurus)?

Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 8:49 pm

The fact that you promised lifetime free upgrades was definitely a consideration for me, infact, it was more of a comfort blanket in spending my (at that time) very hard earned money. However, would it be today? Probably not as much.... The trick is the "frequency" of upgrades that would be required to stay ontop of the current product, and the cost of said upgrade.

Would we be required to pay the full price again for an upgrade? This could definitely be a consideration for a lot of people. The scheme I've always liked best in regards to paying for an upgrade is this: You get a discount (sometimes even half the cost of the product, so $25 lets say for a $50 product) when upgrading from the PREVIOUS major version of a piece of software. However, if you skip a major version, you need to pay the full price, which makes it fair for both the developer, as they're encouraged to build a very powerful, and stable product, and the buyer gets a good deal on upgrading their software with the assurance that they get the support and continued ability to have this product continue to grow. So if you're looking at a release cycle every year more, that's a fine idea.

That said, I'd say it's not important to promise the free upgrades for the life of the product, but at the same time, it might be nice to say something like the following:

We guarentee FREE upgrades to any major version purchased within 1 year of your purchase date.

That way if I buy the product, and 2 months later you release a major version, I'm not out yet more money, and yet you're not locked into working on a product that people have been using for 5-7 years without paying for again. It's kinda the best of both worlds, and perhaps when someone upgrades, they'd get the same type of guarentee. As you stated in another thread recently, typically "major" releases don't happen more frequently than about a year or so apart, so just incase this type of upgrade did happen, again, customers would be covered.

It'd still give that comforting feeling that people want when buying a piece of software that they're not going to get screwed, yet at the same time, you're not locked into anything that will hurt your business's future.

A happy median can be reached, it's just a matter of finding it, but this sounds like it'd work to me Wink

Apprentice Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 157 Location: USA

I agree with IceChild. If I was to buy Emobius the day before a major upgrade gets released, then discovered I'd have to pay again tomorrow for an upgrade, I'd be awfully upset. I don't wast to screw Zuggsoft over, but I think it'd be pretty reasonable to be able to upgrade free within 1 year of one's having purcased a copy of Emobius. And a significant discout (maybe 25-50%) for upgrades thereafter would be fair for both the customer and you.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

To be honest with you, it wasn't the upgrades which got me buying Zmud, it was the hours of fun I had with a trial version of 4.62 which made me go "I've used this long enough, Zugg deserves cash". And bought two copies relatively close together.

Then if you look at zMapper, I bought a couple of copies because I wanted to support the project because maybe one day in the future I would use it with D&D maps or something. In a way, I was 'banking' on the free upgrades so that when it becomes a useful product for me I'll be able to run the new version.

Some other shareware that I own copies of is Zonealarm Pro, Adsubtract, Bulletproof FTP client + server, Mailwasher Pro, Audiograbber...

Adsubtract are currently trying to sell me an upgrade, but I'm not biting because the upgrade only gives you 12 months of updates and costs $14.95 ... so essentially every 12 months, if I want to keep current, I have to pay another $14.95. Perhaps that's fair enough because they have to provide definition updates, but from my perspective I'm not going to pay $14.95 a for an upgrade 'subscription'... I'll just go find another program that does the same job.

Bulletproof FTP are taking a different tact, they are saying "we're making a pro version and you will be eligable to upgrade to it".. but then still give upgrades free for life.

Now, back to your license scheme. For me, unless I get a good upgrade deal then I probably would just stick with Outlook Express and Mailwasher... its worked for me for now, albeit a bit annoying at times... but if I'm going to be looking at an adsubtract-style license of $29.95 purchase and then $14.95 (eg 50% discount) a year I wouldn't be an early adopter of Emobius... I'd wait until maybe the '5.55' equivalent version before buying, and then perhaps re-purchase at the '6.63' or '7.05' level.

My personal preference would be one of these options:

1) Free upgrades for life. Leave '6.16' as the 'standard' version. Make '6.63' the 'pro' version and let people upgrade to pro for 50% of pro 'RRP'. Leave '9.35' as the last 'pro' version and make 10.03 the 'enterprise' version. Protect people's investments for 1 year eg if pro version comes out within a year of purchasing standard, upgrade to pro for the difference in RRP.
2) Free upgrades for 4 years. Every 4 years charge a 50% RRP upgrade price to buy another 4 years. I say 4 years because that's long enough for people to think it sounds like 'life', but a renewable income for you and it typically gives people 2 major version increases for their dollar.
3) Optional upgrade subscription. Pay $4.95 per year and always get upgrades. It's a variation on #2 but rather than taking out 50% RRP every 4 years, you're taking 10% RRP every year. Initial purchase should include your first year.

I think #2 is my preferred path... it leaves things very clear. You don't get the issue of 'what constitutes a pro version' and you don't get the confusion of 'why did my credit card just get charged 5 bucks from some weird company'.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:03 am

quote:
Would we be required to pay the full price again for an upgrade? This could definitely be a consideration for a lot of people. The scheme I've always liked best in regards to paying for an upgrade is this: You get a discount (sometimes even half the cost of the product, so $25 lets say for a $50 product) when upgrading from the PREVIOUS major version of a piece of software. However, if you skip a major version, you need to pay the full price, which makes it fair for both the developer, as they're encouraged to build a very powerful, and stable product, and the buyer gets a good deal on upgrading their software with the assurance that they get the support and continued ability to have this product continue to grow. So if you're looking at a release cycle every year more, that's a fine idea.

The above is what I think fair for both Zuggsoft and the consumer. This email program can be readily used for business purposes, and I think it should be license differently than the other Zuggsoft products. This is the paying scheme for all my professional tools (text editors, IDEs, and addins).

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I believe we had a very long drawn out discussion on licensing and upgrades way back at the beginning. I actually think some consensus was reached. I'll find it and give it a bump. Then wehn I can actually read both you'll get more of my opinion beyond, "free for life is right out." It makes no sense for this product.

Magician Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 356 Location: USA

Personally, you could charge me $5 to $10 per upgrade and i'd not complain. (preferably a full version upgrade, not a minor upgrade :) )

As for buying a product today, then find out the newest version was released a few days later, it's happened to me several times and I just called the company and explained the circumstance and they upgraded me for free.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:29 am

Vijilante, thanks for bumping the old post, but it tended to get side tracked on eLicense-specific issues, so that's why I wanted to open the question back up and look at the bigger picture and let people suggest other alternatives.

Toetag is right about the upgrade issue though. No matter what policy I had, if you had just bought the program and I updated it within the next few days or weeks, I'd certainly never charge you for it. That has helped clarify the situation.

I think the "free for X years" is the best approach so far. It's simple, which is *very* important. Support costs are a huge problem that I need to think about. Right now Chiara and I both spend a couple of hours per day, seven days a week, doing email. So, if email support goes up by a factor of three, then suddenly I don't have *any* time to program and would have to look at oursourcing support, which I don't want to do.

A majority of support questions are license related, even with zMUD. So, any complex scheme would probably end up producing too many support emails from confused customers. So, the simpler the better. The "Free for X years" is simple, straightforward, protects me from future issues, and also protects the customer.

I think "Free for 1 year" is probably too short, but "Free for 4 years" is too long, so the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

And probably some sort of higher price for a "lifetime" license would also be a good combination for people who want that kind of protection as well.

Anyway, keep the discussion going, and I'll go re-read the other thread to remind myself what was discussed there.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Yeah, free for 1 year is way too short... 2 years is borderline depending on the cost of upgrades. I suggested 4 years is because I buy a new PC every 4 years so... if that's the rate that I pay for new versions of windows, then I don't see why it shouldn't be the rate that I pay for a new version of emobius too.

If lifetime licenses were available then it comes back to #1 that I posted, where you end up creating the 'Pro' and 'Enterprise' versions later on. The only downside with that is you have to be clear at the outset that the lifetime license doesn't cover future 'Pro' or 'Enterprise' level versions, but there will be an upgrade path to them. I don't think you would make as stable an income from this method as you would from the # of years method, plus it means supporting multiple versions of the program later on... not that it means you have to keep developing the standard version to add new features, but you still have to answer support emails about it.

So even though I'd be an adopter of a lifetime license, it probably doesn't make as much business sense as a free upgrades+support for X years or some kind of subscription based system. Can elicense handle subscriptions in that if you stop paying for your support subscription, you can't install new versions but can still install the old ones?

Heh, maybe you should offer 'the ultimate ZuggSoft package where for only $9.95 per year per PC you can run any ZuggSoft product' but you have to renew the license each year to keep using them. Dunno how many people are ready to adopt to 'leasing' software, but if you got enough it would be a very stable source of income.

Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:40 pm

I'd just like to clarify, is this "Free for X years" including a reduced cost for upgrading? Or would we be re-purchasing the software. If it's a repurchase, then of course most people would think a larger value for X would be preferable, however, if it's a reduced cost, then 2 years doesn't seem so bad. Also, it would definitely depend on how much if a discount was being provided, etc.

And here's the kicker, when they do have to pay for the upgrade after X years, does that grant them an additional X years of free upgrades? So that they are indeed "renewing" what they had previously? If I'm reading this correctly, then that would be the case, however, I didn't see anywhere that was as black and white as the direct question.

Personally? I think 2 years isn't to much to ask with a discounted renewal path. That's a lot more liberal than a lot of companies out there, and it'd be something that I think especially business-level purchasers would feel comfortable. Heck, in that field, you get screwed more than anything else, so having some sort of protection scheme would be like a golden light shining down on your product.

Enchanter Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 656 Location: USA

When I buy software, I want to make sure it will still be supported for about 3 years without having to pay for a new version. In addition, I expect discounted rates if I decide to upgrade to a new version.

If upgrades are not free, I would want to know how long you will continue to support the version I bought before I'm forced to upgrade. A 3 year support timeframe is the standard which will garentee that any bugs are fixed, 4 years would be better. Heavey discounted rate for upgrading within the first month of a new release, then a minor discount for upgrades after. In addition 1 year free upgrade from the purchase date.

If I buy version 1.0 for $25 and you come out with version 2.0 four months afterwards, I expect version 2.0 for free.

If I buy version 1.0 for $25 and 1 year down the road you come out with version 2.0, I should be able to upgrade for like 60-80% off the normal price if I buy within the first month of its release. 40-60% off If I buy version 2.0 afterwards.

If I buy version 1.0 for $25 and 2 years down the road your out with version 4.0, I still expect you to continue fixing bugs in the 1.0 release and send me patches for at least 3 years, 4 years would be better, at the end of the 4 year term I should be given a notice that your support for this version is ending.

If I buy version 1.0 for $25 and 2 years down the road you out with version 4.0, I don't expect any discount to upgrade since I did not keep up with your new versions. (I did not buy version 2.0 and 3.0)

Hope this helps.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:08 pm

quote:

If I buy version 1.0 for $25 and 2 years down the road your out with version 4.0, I still expect you to continue fixing bugs in the 1.0 release and send me patches for at least 3 years, 4 years would be better, at the end of the 4 year term I should be given a notice that your support for this version is ending.

This would not be feasible and/or cost effective for a software company of Zuggsoft's size. He would soon go out of business. I don't believe he has done this in the past, and it would be suicide in the future.

I could see this being done for software that is several hundred dollars and higher. I just don't see the point for something that costs less than $100. I think this would jive with Zugg's intended audience.

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:50 pm

Sorry, but I've rarely seen *any* company, no matter what size, continuing to fix bugs in older versions of software. The bug fixes *are* the newer versions.

As bortaS mentions, there is no way I can maintain multiple source-code threads to fix bugs in multiple versions at the same time.

Of course, in my opinion, you should NEED to fix bugs in older versions. All public versions should be stable without any need for bug fixes. New major versions add *features*.

So, this will work just like it did with zMUD. For example, I might release public version 3.0. Then I find that there are still bugs, so I release 3.01, then 3.02, etc. For example, with the current public version of zMUD we are at 7.05. v7.05 is stable and has very few bugs (nothing is ever completely bug free). None of the bugs effect the ability to use v7.05. So, 7.05 is the final public version of that "series".

Now, when I start adding new features, you might see a version 7.10 that is a beta version, then 7.11, etc, until the new features have been all added. Then you get a new public release and a new set of bug fixes until it is stable again. While working on 7.1x, there is no way I'd ever go back and do any fixes to 7.05. That would require a complex source code management system that is way beyond what I need as a single-person programmer. Using a complex source manager would slow down my development (not to mention that I'd have to pay for a complex tool like that and keep it upgraded, which costs a lot).

What WILL be supported in older versions is that you can still ask questions about how to do something and still get answers. When upgrades are free, like with zMUD, I rarely answer questions about old versions...my answer is always "upgrade for free and then we'll talk". If upgrades are not free, then I will obviously still need to answer questions for older versions. But that does not mean that there is any further development of the older versions.

Anyway, as bortaS mentioned, lets try to keep this stuff in context. I'm just a single person. I'm not some huge company with a huge development budget and lots of people to help me. Because of that low overhead, I'm able to produce inexpensive software and update it very quickly. This comes at a price. It means that you are not going to get the high-end support for a huge company that you might get (or might not) with Microsoft. But it means the support you *do* get is more personalized.

Finally, go take a look at the FAQ page at http://www.zuggsoft.com/emobius/aboutem.htm and see where the licensing that I'm planning to use is more fully described. It is similar to what Talahaski is talking about, except without the continued bug fixes of old versions. I think it is a good compromise for both the developer and the customer.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Btw 'complex source management tools' are free. Set up a CVS server (www.cvsnt.org) and use a client such as Tortoise (www.tortoisecvs.org) and suddenly you can maintain multiple versions of code / set up branches / have multiple developers working on the same code / etc ... so as beta starts on the next version, you branch it into a new tree, work on it separately from the public version and you can still fix critical bugs in the earlier public version without hassle.

I use them both for my work projects and my home projects (even the MUD code). It's even great for synchronizing code changes you do at work, home and laptop. Thoroughly recommend using it.

Adept Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 224 Location: USA

I like the idea of free upgrades for 2 years. I think that is a very good decision from a marketing point of view and from a consumer point of view.

It is better then saying "If there is a major bug we will fix it, you can download the service packs, but hey, if you want this SINGLE NEW FEATURE that was just added, pay for the entire program again. Have a nice day."

I like the idea, and I fully intend on buying.

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:07 am

Rainchild, does it support Delphi? I certainly don't have time this week to go looking at something like that.

And yeah, Evangelist, I'd like to *never* charge for bug fixes. But sometimes that isn't possible. I remember the VT100 scrolling region code was broken in zMUD until sometime in version 6! Does that mean I should patch version 3.62, 4.62, and 5.55 to handle scrolling regions? No...especially since the "fix" required some of the new MXP features I added to v6.x.

I think the only time the 2-year upgrade limit is going to upset somebody is if they bought v2.0 and then they keep upgrading to every new version. Then they get v3.0, and sometime while the bug fixes to v4.0 are being release, like with 4.04 or sometime, suddenly it's 2 years past the time that they bought the old 2.0 version. So yeah, now they are stuck with a version (4.03) that has bugs and have to buy the new upgrade license just to get the 4.04 bug fixes to 4.03. But you know, that really shouldn't upset anyone...it's not like they just paid for it yesterday...they paid for it *2* years ago.

Everyone should remember that I'm trying to find a compromise here. Obviously "free updates forever" is better for customers than any other policy. An "upgrades free for 2 years" policy is worse. But I need to find something that *I* can also live with. "Upgrades free for 2 years" is certainly better than "no free upgrades", right?

From what I been able to find looking at other software, the common policies seem to be:

1) Nothing is free (actually pretty rare)
2) Minor updates are free, Major updates require money.
2a) Major updates are discounted if you are using the previous version
2b) Major update is free if you purchased within the last N months
2c) Major update is never discounted.
3) All updates are free for X years
4) Upgrades are free forever.

OK, so zMUD used #4. We are taking a small step back in going with #3. Most companies seem to be in the #2 area, with #2a and #2b being the most common. I think #3 is still a fair policy and still better than many other software companies.

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:44 am

Zugg,

Have you heard of FreeVCS? I've been using it for a few years now. It integrates directly into Delphi. I don't program in Delphi anymore, but I use the stand alone client. It's pretty solid, and I haven't lost code in 4 years. FreeVCS is now open source and JEDI has taken over its development. The open source version is called JEDI VCS.

FreeVCS: http://www.freevcs.org/
JEDI VCS: http://jedivcs.sourceforge.net/

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 am

bortaS, I installed FreeVcs to take a look at it. To be honest, I really hate version control systems...they just seem to slow me down...but I'm trying to be open minded about this. It's easier to start doing this while the project is small (compared to zMUD for example).

I ran into a couple of things, though.

1) It *always* prompts me for a check-out comment, even when the option in the Properties is unchecked.
2) I can't seem to associate any other file types to be opened automatically in the IDE. As you can imagine, I'd like to associate *.ZML files somehow so that when I check them out, they are opened in the Delphi IDE just like *.PAS files. The problem is that I have assigned ZML in Windows to run the file using ZEUS. And even when I uncheck the "Always use shell namespace extension" option in the Internal Editors property box, it still always runs Zeus instead of loading the file into Delphi.

As usual, it's getting in my way instead of helping me.

Also, I wish there was a way to put an icon for the Project Manager in the task bar or something. When you minimize it, it acts as a local Delphi window and puts it down in the lower-left part of the window about the taskbar.

Is there anyone else who completely *HATES* the fact that Windows puts application windows in that STUPID location when you minimize them? They immediately get covered up by any applications running in full screen, so it makes the minimized windows impossible to find again without a ton of clicking. Why couldn't they just minimize application windows back to the taskbar like everything else. They changed this many versions of Windows ago, and I still hate it.

Anyway, it's been a frustrating night. Maybe I should just go to bed.

Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:23 am

Oh, and I don't suppose there is anyway to "group" various modules into different categories, is there? For example, I've got several files in the project that are "ZML test files", I've got several files that are "Visual Components", and several files that relate to the "Scripting" part of Zeus, and other files that relate to the "XML Parsing" in Zeus.

Instead of just seeing the huge listing of dozens of files, it would be nice if there was a tree-hierarchy where I could use categories like this.

Sigh...I'm using this system for one hour and am already thinging of many ways to make it better. Why does that always happen? I'm never happy with anyone else's software. And *NO* I'm not going to write my own version control system, and I don't have time to join the Jedi project. Oh well, I guess I'll just suffer. Still, it makes me wonder who actually uses this stuff.

I mean, bortaS, you said you've been using this for years...do you really just stare at hundreds of filenames in your project manager all the time and never get bothered by the lack of a way to organize that?

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Here is my two cents:

Buying a full license to eMobius gets you free upgrades for 3 years, and support for 1 year. This license costs $50.
After 1 year, your support contract expires. Zugg may still provide support, but at a lower priority than his current customers, or perhaps not at all.
The first year after your support expires, you can 'renew' your contract for $25. This renewal extends your 'free version' license to 3 years past your renewal date, and starts a new 1 year support contract.
In the last year, the renewal price goes up to $40.
After the 3 years are up, you can no longer upgrade, and if you want a new version you'll need to buy a full $50 license again.

I know the idea of paid support will cause some people grief, but as Zugg says support is one of his major costs and burdens. Having to plop down $20 if you really need some help is a pretty cheap cost, since you get support for a whole year, and it extends your version out 3 years.

People who need lots of help, like home business owners, will be upgrading regularly, paying for their support. People who don't need much help will be buying a new version every 3 years.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Second penny:

As far as Zeus licensing... personally, I think it is not worth the trouble. I think that it is in Zugg's best interest to require that addons and apps using Zeus be distributed free of charge. The more people who make apps, the more people who buy eMobius. Similar to the mod community with games... games with many popular mods (eg. Half Life and Tribes) have a MUCH longer shelf life and sell more copies than games with a limited or non-existent mod community.

Encouraging people to make addons with Zeus will create value for the product. Just like programs for a TI-85 or free addons for Half Life, anytime you have free content that someone must buy your product to use, you win. If Zeus turns out as good as it looks like it might, then there will be a ton of addons for Zeus, with or without the ability to profit off of them.

I would specifically say in the license that anyone can distribute addons for Zeus, but nothing can be charged for them without written permission... and I recommend against giving permission except perhaps to download sites that charge to burn you a CD so you don't have to download something.

Adept Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 224 Location: USA

How about different plans eh?

$50 bucks you get major upgrades for 2 years and minor upgrades for 3 years. After the first 2 years are over, IF a new MAJOR version is released within 6 months, they can buy the MAJOR version for $25 starting a new contract and voiding the other one (not cingular, no rollover minutes).

After the second contract expires for the major updates (2 years), a new MAJOR version will cost full price, but they will still have free minor upgrades for 1 more year. After the last year is over for minor updates they are SOL unless they buy a new license.

You figure, at MOST that is $75 for 5 years if they DO NOT pay full price for a new upgrade that was available between months 24 and 30.

The least they will pay is $50 for 3 years If they do not pay for the major update after year 2.

I think I maybe made sense. I am sure someone already said the same thing though, hehe.

Adept Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 224 Location: USA

Forgot the second plan sorry.

Covered the $50 plan.

Say another one for $25-$35. It gives you the major verion and free MINOR updates for 3 years. If they wanna buy a new major verion within that 3 year period, they can pay $50 and get free major updates for 2 years and minor for 3, of they can pay another $25 for the major update and only get minor updates.

Make any sense?

I would pay for something like that.

Adept Joined: 12 Nov 2000 Posts: 268 Location: Canada

I'd just like to point out that there is one other company that uses a type of 'buy now, get x amount of time for free upgrades/support then buy more' and it doesn't go over very well. I'm talking about the makers of Trillian, but their problem is that they don't release often enough for it to be like usefull for anyone to have a whole year of subscription.

Honestly, this is an issue that there is no RIGHT answer to, there are many viewpoints, but ultimatly it rests on zuggs shoulders...only time will really tell if he makes the right descision.

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:20 pm

There's no comparing Zugg to Trillian as far as release schedule. From everything I've seen and experienced over my years of using his various products, I have absolutely no question as to his conviction of his company, his products, and his want to give his customers a superior product. When Zugg says "Free Upgrades for X period of time", you can rest a sure that you WILL see an update within that amount of time, if not many. And I'm not talking about bug fixes, I'm talking about feature-rich major releases. Especially on a project like this, where Zugg is gambling his company on the project (not that I feel it's much if a gamble, if you build it, they WILL come, especially talking about this quality), you'll see him pushing himself to the brink of insanity to create a product that makes all of his customers happy.

My experiences with Trillian's dev team made me give up on that project a long time ago (I was a beta for their first pro version and was even a supporter back then), but their lack of commitment has made me switch to a more open source project which I now fully support. (If you're interested, check out Miranda at http://www.miranda-im.org/ ) If I didn't believe Zugg would make a superior product, I wouldn't be around here suggesting a ton of ideas back when he started talking about this wild and crazy scheme. It's a matter of faith, but I do not believe he will fail us after so many years of making our other experiences so much for the better.