Zugg Software :: View topic

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I changed the topic title so it wouldn't confuse anyone new to the forums. Locking the topic would be useless since it would start anew in another topic.

Hatespyware, I truly appreciate the work you do to find all these nifty quotes. The effort involved shows how truly devoted you are to your cause.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

quote:
Originally posted by Vijilante

I changed the topic title so it wouldn't confuse anyone new to the forums. Locking the topic would be useless since it would start anew in another topic.

Hatespyware, I truly appreciate the work you do to find all these nifty quotes. The effort involved shows how truly devoted you are to your cause.

This looks like an interesting topic Smile

. Spyware is a misused term in my opinion. Exactly what is counted as spying? Is preventing cracking the program act of a spy?

Spyware must therefore be more related to sending confidential data from the client to a server. A copy protection usually sends some kind of ID of the program to be able to verify that it's legitimate. Saying that zMUD is spyware is a pure joke. If on the other hand e-license send personal information like documents then it is spying and would probably also be illegal.

Tracking statistics is not spyware. It could be done to measure how much bandwidth is needed for the server etc. Perhaps they see that some users abuse the service by trying to bruteforce their way in. Even if the information is used by Zugg to see that there's still activity in his product it is good. Nothing bad seems to come from this. Is the information used AGAINST you? I doubt that.

Of course Zugg is tracking his customers during the nights Smile

. I have seen Kjata and other zMUD gurus defend e-license but the truth is that I think they don't really like it either. They use it to support Zuggsoft as they know it would be discontinued without it.

I have heard of how Zuggsoft will cease to exist and zMUD sales drop to zero in the latest days topics.... If that happens the MUD 'scene' is dead. zMUD is one of those things that holds it together. To expect new modern users to sit behind a telnet console is odd and needs reconsideration. The day zMUD dies the MUD 'scene' might very well die with it.

Beginner Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 21 Location: USA

Perhaps this is just the noob in me...and please let me know if I am wrong in my thinking:

I buy zMUD.
I register zMUD and get a license # (3 actually) from eLicense electronically.
"Installing" my license provides me 90 days worth of mud-bliss.
After 90 days, I get a reminder from my zMUD program that I need to confirm my license # with eLicense--I allow the program to confirm the #.
I happily mud again for 90 more days.

I don't see the problem...?

If zMUD itself (or even the license for that matter) is setup with some sort of "timer" that expires...and prompts you to re-confirm your license # (not automatically doing it for you behind-the-scenes)...then were is the spyware?

In short:

I like zMUD.
I like Zugg for making zMUD.
Without zMUD I wouldn't be 1/2 the player I am :)

Thank you Zugg!

Brains - get some :)
hatespyware - get your definitions of "spyware" correct :)

Apprentice Joined: 16 Dec 2002 Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by Garrison

hatespyware - get your definitions of "spyware" correct :)

Where have you _ever_ seen me use the word spyware in my posts? Are you even bothering to read my posts, or are you just making assumptions based on my username (which I've used as a handle for several years). Why would you assume that I don't know what does or does not constitute spyware? I swear... it was obvious that nobody bothered to look into e-licensing on their own, so I thought I'd share the facts about it. It is obvious that my attempt to educate were lost on you - maybe next time I'll draw it out as a cartoon that you could understand.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Wibble wibble wibble.

If you don't like elicense, hateware, then don't run zmud Razz

The only people who don't seem to like it, are the people who can't find a crack for it therefore actually have to pay for zmud. Jeesh, grow up and support shareware.

It's one thing to shaft a big corporation like MS but don't shaft sole developers like Zugg.

Beginner Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 21 Location: USA

I have read your posts (all of them).

I think most people would agree that you are implying (without outright stating) in your posts that eLicense shoud be considered (or is, in your opinion) spyware because it supposedly accesses your computer without your permission and sends information about you/your pc/etc to eLicense without your knowledge.

But, it's my understanding (again, please correct me if I'm wrong) that eLicense doesn't do that.

My thought is that when you license your copy, it sets some sort of "timer" to run out in 90 days. This isn't something that is continuously going out to eLicense to get and check...it's internal on your PC and - from what I would guess - part of zMUD (maybe I'm wrong here).

At the end of 90 days, the timer goes off and tells you to renew your license--which you then go out to the eLicense site willingly and do. They check your purchase information, make sure that you have a valid license #, and reset the timer.

There are no "behind the scenes" covert communications between your PC and eLicense. They don't track that you visit 97 pr0n sites a day. It doesn't report to Zugg that you are a CNN junkie or that your homepage is the DNC site. It only accesses the eLicense site when you renew your license.

This timer/license arrangement is not all that dissimilar to many shareware or trial-run programs. The company/creator gives you a set amount of time to evaluate the program and then, if you don't buy it, it doesn't run anymore. Plain and simple.

Is there any "spyware" going on there? No.

Is there any "spyware" going on here? No.

Thus my comment about correcting the (your) definition of spyware--at least, that is, your thinly veiled argument that eLicense is spyware.

I'll also add this: if eLicense is to be considered spyware, why don't sites like cexx.org, etc post about it and programs like AdAware
remove it? Because it isn't :)

Don't be a hater ;)

Apprentice Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 100 Location: USA

quote:
Where have you _ever_ seen me use the word spyware in my posts? Are you even bothering to read my posts, or are you just making assumptions based on my username (which I've used as a handle for several years). Why would you assume that I don't know what does or does not constitute spyware? I swear... it was obvious that nobody bothered to look into e-licensing on their own, so I thought I'd share the facts about it. It is obvious that my attempt to educate were lost on you - maybe next time I'll draw it out as a cartoon that you could understand.

Can you just ignore people instead of flaming them? This is one of the few forums left that I go to that has very few flames, full of useful content that I enjoy reading. Next time you feel the need to be hostile and annoying, take a deep breath and just ignore them please.

Beginner Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 14

I'm very hesitant to post to this thread at all for fear that I will be taken the wrong way. However, I am an independant developer myself and I understand the need for copy protection and believe the eLicense provides a decent one, what I don't understand is how people can be so mixed up about what eLicense actually can and can not do. Hatespyware is correct in his original post, in theory Zugg *could* blacklist your license number so that when you try to re-license your copy of zMud you would indeed find out that you never actually *owned* it in the first place, you were renting it. This is the license that we (purchasers of zMud) agreed to, and I personally do not have a problem with this anti-feature as it's been called. But this is not spyware, nor was hatespyware saying that it was. To get back to the original purpose of this thread, it is great news to hear that eLicense itself is no longer relying on a third party hosting company. For those of you keeping score if zMud relies on third party eLicense and eLicense itself relies on third party services that is WAY too many cooks in the kitchen. So this change will make it better, will it make it perfect? of course not, but in a perfect world people wouldn't steal software either.

I'll end by saying that I've tried to be as un-biased as possible in this, I myself write software under the GNU license which strictly prohibits any means of copy protection of software (yes this also limits income from GNU licensed software but I'm not in it for the money), but this does not mean that I am against copy protection in general, nor am I against Zugg using eLicense for his software. I read the forums, I checked on eLicense before I laid my money down for zMud and I agreed to it all, if you don't then get to work developing your own Mud client, I'd even be willing to help you with that, and then you can get away from eLicense and Zuggsoft and anything else you don't like about the current selection of mud clients.

Apprentice Joined: 16 Dec 2002 Posts: 103

quote:
Originally posted by rebeldev

I'm very hesitant to post to this thread at all for fear that I will be taken the wrong way.

I would like to thank you very much. Knowing for certain that at least one person is even capable of looking at things in the same way as I am feels like it is somehow releasing my feelings of needing to post or to defend my posts. As far as the e-licensing stuff goes, I think that the last that I'll say regarding it is to suggest a comparison between zMud and other intellectual property that most of us buy license to use: CDs and DVDs. Both represent the license of use to intellectual property, and both cost about the same to end-users. Assuming that the technology was already in place to implement, I don't think that there is a single person who would abide to being restricted to playing their CD in no more than 3 different CD players without having to go through a process to "unlicense." Nor would we like being asked to somehow authenticate the license periodically in order to have a usable disc. Would it matter if the disc were really good? I don't think so. What if the artist or publisher that released it needed to make lots of money to make another? Hey, not my fault – I bought the thing in the first place! How would you feel about Sony being able to track and profile your music tastes according to how often you listen to your favorite “Dead Milkmen” album? Well, guys... this is exactly what is at stake here. The same laws that protect software generally protect other forms of intellectual property including inventions, patents, music, film, etc. Don't get me wrong... I use zMud, too. I go through the procedures that you do, and I know that having to relicense periodically doesn't seem like a big inconvenience at this point. However, I feel like we need to all be clear about what is really going on here and how our complacence about it can possibly have disastrous returns.

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:35 pm

quote:
Originally posted by hatespyware

As far as the e-licensing stuff goes, I think that the last that I'll say regarding it is to suggest a comparison between zMud and other intellectual property that most of us buy license to use: CDs and DVDs.

Comparing zMUD and CD's is a fallacy from the beginning. When you buy a TRUE cd, there is no license scheme upon it, and its only RIAA who changed the rules in recent years who decided sharing CD's is evil. In fact, the antipiracy schemes companies use to discourage ripping negates the legal use of of the "compact disc" name and logo. A true CD is only audio data. Not movie clips of the number 1 songs on the album, no weblinks to install, no phone-home spyware, no elicense - theres nothing else. Anything like that turns the CD into a plastic disc with stuff. (This did turn Slightly Irrelevant, but if you must try and compare elicense to something, pick an appropriate comparison.)

However, you did get the heart of the issue correctly - when you buy zMUD, you buy a license to use it - not to "own" zMUD. If you truly owned zMUD, you'd get a copy of the source. But no, you purchased the right to legally run zMUD, an agreement you made when you a) hand over the money, and b) click "I agree". The chosen method of ensuring you're allowed to use zMUD is elicense, and the system checks every 90 days to see if you're meant to have a valid copy or not. If Zugg decides your license is an illegally obtained version, isnt it his right to disable the key? He is a reasonable man, after all - I never got banned (or even flamed, for that matter) after fessing up on stealing versions for years. If a key was banned and the user thought s/he was being treated unfairly, he'd definately let the user state their case without being judgemental, and most probably re-enable the key.

I dont see what the problem here is...do you think ole Gatesy or Carmack would do the same for you in a similar situation? Why must you argue small points with a small company when RIAA hurts their user base for doing things people have done for decades?

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

Well, seems like we are finally reaching a constructive place. Smile

It's true that eLicense is an inconvenience. It's true that eLicense can deactivate your license for one reason or another (for my part, I never debated that one.) It's true that eLicense is not spyware nor is it spying on you in any way.

For the first point, it is an inconvenience, but a necessary one at that. We've already gone through all the points of why a copy-protection scheme is necessary, we've already debated that eLicense is effective, and in the end, it was Zugg decision after carefully considering many other options, so we should respect that.

For the second point, I'm sure that we can trust eLicense and ZuggSoft to not deactivate licenses on a whim. If they do deactivate one (which I have never heard of so far), it would be because of a License Agreement violation. However, if you are commiting a License Agreement violation, then you are liable to be sued, so I think disabling a license would be better.

For the third point, well, there really isn't more to say other than yes, by the nature of eLicense it could spy on you, but it doesn't.

Finally, I'll just take a moment to compare hatespyware's and rebeldev's replys. As I read rebeldev's reply, it did not bother me in any way. The reason why it was that way is because it is courteously written, in a calm and collected manner, and with no unecessary bashing of either eLicense or ZuggSoft. As I've said many times before, is not that you have a different opinion, is the way you put it accross. hatespyware originally posted in two separate topics about the evils of eLicense (one of which was really off-topic) and a third one was clearly filled with anger towards ZuggSoft. None of them were written the way rebeldev's reply was written. hatespyware, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you can understand my point of view and see the differences in the posts (with your very last reply in this thread as another example of how they all should be). For my part I have no problem with different opinions, as long as the discussion is carried in a civil and constructive way. Hey, if it were not for dissenting opinions, the world would still be flat and we'd the sun would be orbiting us!

Beginner Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 21 Location: USA

Thank you reb and seamer for illuminating something for me.

I never looked at this situation in that manner before your posts.

I guess it is sort of like leasing a car...if you don't want to use it anymore, you "turn it in" (in this case, stop renewing).

And I never realized that Zugg could, if he chose, "blacklist" your license # -- so let's call this "be nice to Zugg year" :)

Thanks for a good education!

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:51 pm

In the spirit of adding something constructive to this thread, there is actually a situation that happens on occasion where I definitely *do* block a license # and this is the real reason the "feature" exists in eLicense. Here is the scenario:

1) Some "idiot" notices that ZuggSoft offers a full 30-day refund for products.
2) So they "buy" a copy of zMUD and get a registration code.
3) They then email ZuggSoft and say they want a refund.
4) ZuggSoft refunds their money, and they are left with a fully functional registration code.

I've had many more people that you'd think try this scam. Everytime it happens it makes me wonder about the future of our society. How do I know that this is happening? Simple...some of these people are really stupid...in 90 days when they try to renew their reg code and get an error they actually email me to ask me why they can't get their license! When I remind them that they got a refund 90 days ago, I never hear from them again. I guess they are too embarrased.

In some other situations, they think they are really being clever and instead of emailing ZuggSoft for a refund, they just contact their credit card and cancel the order. What they don't seem to realize is that the credit card company sends me a record of this. It's called a Chargeback. So I'm still able to disable their reg code. What really irks me is that when someone does it this way I get charged a fee by the credit card company, so I lose money. Fortunately this doesn't happen all that often. But it's amazing what some people will do.

So yes, there is a good reason why there is a mechanism to disable a registration code. And honestly, I have never disabled a registration code for any other reason.

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

Before this goes off on a rant about piracy let me say a few things.

Sometime along the way someone decided to use this word to describe what they felt was a violation of thier copyright. After that it took off. The pertinent definition of piracy as per http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm:

quote:

3: the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright

Note the broad base of "production" and "invention" covers ever material object, that you can see around you. Essentially the authors of the dictionary could not find any real object to attach the definition to and had to cover as much ground as possible.

Now to the definition of pirate from the same source:

quote:

: one who commits or practices piracy

Obviously we are all pirates since Edison never gave us specific permission to use his Lightbulb (all puns intended since he is one smart cookie). You may now return your candle illuminated existences.

Newbie Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 8

Zugg is the best thing that ever happened to mudding in general. ;-) Not to mention eLicense isn't that hard to deal with if you obey its rules... Its all you hackers who have the problems anyways. ;-) Thanks for everything Zugg! (For the record I think for every loser who has a problem with zMud, 100 people let it quietly work its magic and make their lives better.)

Novice Joined: 22 Nov 2003 Posts: 34

I used zMUD for all of the trial period, and as soon as it was over, I purchased it. I'm amazed that Zugg can offer such a great program for so little (less than just about any video game) AND offer free upgrades for life. Using eLicense to access zMUD was pretty simple--a heck of a lot better than having to keep a CD in your drive whenever you want to run a program.

Basically, what's the big deal? What's wrong with a software developer making money? I remember the stacks of pirated floppies in the college dorms. I still see stacks of pirated CDs on people's desks at work and in their homes. I'm sure people steal zMUD even WITH eLicense. In fact, some of the characters in the MUDs I've been on have told me they were using a cracked version. Probably not the latest version, but they'll try anything to get away with paying. Which is silly, because zMUD is REALLY cheap!

I just wanted to say, I probably wouldn't play any MUD without zMUD. The other clients may be better than telnet, but they really don't compare.

By the way, hatespyware, I loved your script for using Altavista's Babel fish in zMUD. Babel fish is kind of a crappy translator, but it's fun to start speaking in German or French with native speakers on MUDs. Try that one without zMUD. Well, maybe you could, but I can't! Thanks for the script!

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:17 pm

"AND offer free upgrades for life" - this is the one thing which bothers me in the ZMud license agreement. Who's life is this we are talking about? Fortunately due to my lifestyle and advancing age, I should not have to worry about it, but what if (heaven forbid) Zugg get's run over by a donkey cart? Is he sufficiently mud-attuned to get reincarnated back at the temple as long as he has customers surviving him? Or will those unlucky few be able to sue his corpse for breach of contract? Enquiring minds want to know! (well mine does, anyway)

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

Zugg has this nasty little virus he wrote. It's pretty harmless as all it does is repeatedly jump on a caroming turtle shell millions and millions of times a second whenever he jumps up the stairs in his castle. By now I'd wager he's got hundreds of lives to work with.

Just in case you happened to be serious, you'd get free upgrades for as long as you are able to enter in your order ID AND someone at zuggsoft is putting out new versions.

Wanderer Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 76 Location: USA

If you can't justify spending a mere $20 bucks for a program like zMUD, you are one TIGHT person. I've bought two licenses because I felt guilty for only paying $20 for such a great program (I'm planning on buying a third one once 7.0 rolls out). It has been the best money I have EVER spent. I am VERY happy with the product and refer all my friends to use it.

And to all you "hackers" out there. Make yourself useful. If you happen to crack elicense, send them an email telling them how you did it. I'm sure they would be greatful for it (and possibly pay you for it depending.). Quit jacking up the prices of software for those of us who pay for our software.

Newbie Joined: 21 Dec 2003 Posts: 3 Location: USA

I am a coder on a mud. I know many players of muds who use and enjoy the Zmud system (I call it that only because of the incredible amount of freedom and flexibility it gives the user). Of these people, I can only think of a select few who have not expressed their annoyance with the eLicence server. After conversing with a number of these Zmud patrons and reading this thread, I have a few questions to pose for the Zumd staff.

First, hack software; availible to anyone with peer-to-peer file sharing software. What steps are being taken to stay ahead of the numerous software hackers that grace the information superhighway?

Second, several people have said that if you don't like it, don't use it. To a certain extent, I agree completely. However, Zmud is without question, the SINGLE most useful piece of telnet software on the market, and getting better. It occurs to me that there are a number of major software companies that don't use anywhere near the type of authentication that Zmud uses while maintaining a decent profit. Have these business tactics been evaluated, (I assume that they have) and if so, why was this particular method choosen.

Third, it occured to me through connection of what several people have said, including Zugg, that Zugg may not always be around, while Zmud will most likely continue to be the most powerful telnet client in circulation. Zugg himself said that at one point he had considered quiting. In the event that Zugg does retire the Zmud business, what plans have been made for the hundreds of happy Zmudders out there with only 34 days left until their eLicence expires. Are there any plans to release a final copy of Zmud with a licence key that lasts forever? Or even no licence key at all?

These are my questions, I do not expect answers to them, although it would be nice. Thank you.

Alternately you can contact me at chrisalanpaul@yahoo.com

Apprentice Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 100 Location: USA

quote:
In the event that Zugg does retire the Zmud business, what plans have been made for the hundreds of happy Zmudders out there with only 34 days left until their eLicence expires. Are there any plans to release a final copy of Zmud with a licence key that lasts forever? Or even no licence key at all?

I would like to know as well.

Newbie Joined: 14 Dec 2003 Posts: 4 Location: USA

I will open this by saying, as many others have expressed, that I absolutely love zMUD, it is undoubtedly the most powerful MUD client out there aswell as one of the easiest interfaces to use. I used freeware MUD clients for a long time before a friend showed me his zMUD and what he was using it for and i flipped, i bought a copy of zMUD and have never looked back. I think that ZUGG and his team are incredibly talented and customer oriented coders/programmers/people in general. I can absolutely, without a doubt see every reason for ZuggSoft's use of the eLicense system (seriously, no eLicense, means no income for Zuggsoft, no income means coding goes much slower (if at all), and that means less zMUD magic for all of us.) On top of that i have absolutely no qualm with Zuggsoft's or eLicense's current practices and the ways of which they go about there work, and to be entirely honest, i wouldn't care if it DID automatically, every 90 days go out and verify my codes without notifying me.

That being said...I don't mean to jump back to a less than positive topic, but it occures to me (correct me if i am wrong) that it is not necessarily any of the practices of zMUD or eLicense that hatespyware and/or brains have a problem with, but the simple fact, as has been stated, that they are leasing the software as opposed to buying it. I can sympathize with this perspective, i own more CDs and games than one could shake a ten foot pole at but i appreciate it because i know, that no matter what, i can boot up a bran spankin' new computer, with or without an internet connection, and slam the CD/DVD whatever in, maybe punch in a key, and play. It's that simple really. It has been stated on many occasions and i can see and sympathize quite quickly with people who write no-CD crackz for games and other sorts of crackz for other sorts of programs that if someone buys a piece of software, it is then there's and they should have every right to recode/crack/copy/mangle/slaughter/destroy that piece of property so long as they are not distributing it to others who do not own a legal copy of the original software. I sometimes find it useful to go online and find a no-CD crack for a game that I own;perhaps I would like to run a music CD in the background instead of the game CD, perhaps it's a multi-cd game and i am tired of opening and closing my drive waiting for CD-ROM to load. But this is just my take on it and i wanted to help play the Devil's Advocate and try and shed some light on peoples' lack of enthusiasm for the way that Zuggsoft handles licensing. This is meant to be entirely educational though and if you have something to add to my post, feel free, if you wish to correct me on something, feel free, but please do so in a respectful manner, thank you.

Enchanter Joined: 20 Nov 2002 Posts: 627 Location: USA

Well, I was feeling left out, so I decided to join in all the fun.

Let me start by apologizing, I am sorry but every time I see someone complaining about elicense I think they are just trying to get something for free.

I have a hard time dealing with you morons complaining about elicense, why does it need to reregister, why does it cost so much, why is the system down, what happens if I can't get a new license if Zugg quits or goes on permanent vacation.
WHY hasn't Zugg pulled his hair out is what I want to know, I swear you all sound like a bunch of 4 year old children.

Zugg being able to REACH into your computer and turn your license off, IS NOT a breach of privacy
It's a tool used to stop scammers not meaning you unless you personally feel you are one then yes you.

Zugg has made it very clear that he does not promote spyware he discourages it, the licensing of Zugg software is not in anyway spyware as it is only to keep your software running properly in the different operating systems.

Upgrades for life, so now maybe Zugg should get an underwriter to put this in small print so morons get the concept:
Upgrades for *life** *= life as used herein is used figuratively not literary, a term of time In which that the people at Zuggsoft find time andor are able to work andor are willing to work on any said project. **= Only for Paid licensed holders.

While your crying about elicense and how you hate it, try these few things to enrich your life:
1)tell the gas company never to read your meter
2)tell the electricity people to never read your meter
3)tell the government that you really own your own property and they have no right to come on it
4)cut all your credit cards up throw away all your in-store discount cards
5)get rid of your phone number
6)take the address off you house or apartment (or rock you crawled out from)
All these things let someone into your life weather you know about it or not you have lived with it your whole life.

Elicense does not discourage people from buying Zuggsoft products, because Zugg still makes money at it, It only discourages theft.

Piracy is a problem and so are the hacked versions of Zmud, I wrote Zugg a long time ago to give him a few suggestions on how to stop this and prevent, YES prevent piracy, Zugg's response was that my ideas had too much to do with spyware and though it might work he did not promote spyware.

One suggestion for Zugg, I know you want to be nice and let everyone have a chance to try your products, but maybe it's time to limit the forum to people who have actually paid for the software, maybe make a separate page for trial period or read only access, Just a thought.

One last suggestion for Zugg, I am extremely impressed with Zmud I don't even mind the bugs, Have you ever thought about writing your own Operating system? If you do I would defiantly be a supporter.

Well, can't wait to read the criticizing of my post, see ya.

Coffee Gooooood.

Apprentice Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 100 Location: USA

quote:
what happens if I can't get a new license if Zugg quits or goes on permanent vacation

You have no problem with never being able to use zMUD again if Zugg decides to quit? If you choose to respond, try to do it with some dignity, and with proper grammar/spelling. You can still get your point across without insulting someone.

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

ManAlive95, I appreciate the points you raised. First the e-License protection itself is quite solid. E-license is staffed by many programmers dedicated to ensuring the safety of products protected by it. That level of protection eliminates all but the most skilled crackers from the playing field. Those that remain are likely to target an application with a much higher price tag. Your second question was unclear so I will ignore it.

The third question is both complex and simple. Zugg may tire of developing zMud, but his commitement to upgrading his products for life will remain. In essence as long the users of zMud can find things needing improvment he will get around to improving them. Once the user base seems to think it is as good at it gets, then there won't be any new upgrades. The e-License system will stay exactly as is, unless they were to go out of business and then Zugg would find an equal or better service (considering that one of e-licenses clients is GE I doubt this will ever happen.)

Vaserian, I appeciate the compliment. I am just a lowly volunteer who has shown a strong interest in the improvment of zMud over the course of time. Zugg's coding staff is just himself, and his support staff is his wife and other volunteers like me. However his style and system of development has givent him access to the most customer oriented think tank possible...all the users of zMud. So give yourself a pat on the back for joining the ranks.

As to the ownership issue you raise it is plain from every EULA in circulation on every piece of software these days that you only lease software. The exception being freeware and that occasionally crosses the bounds too.

Megamog75, your pretty much right on. However, as my daily work involves finding house numbers that people are always trying to hide, I wish you didn't mention removing them entirely.