Zugg Software :: View topic

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Currently I have 2 versions of zmud on my computer 6.40 and 6.15 however im stuck using 6.15 because of its speed. (Similar to quite a few other I've spoken with and read about here on the board) I have MDAC 2.7 RTM Refresh Release. So I know that is not a problem.
My problem comes mainly with spamming directions on my map (easiest to notice the difference this way).

Ok so I am running in FAST speedwalk mode on both of these versions, the map is the exact same (about 2.5k rooms in zone). I'm usin windows 98. Also i have repeat rate on keyboard settings in control pannel set fairly high. On 6.15 if you spam a direction on a map you get there on the map nearly instantly and it follows your character room by room. On 6.40 if I spam it will move a room or so in that direction and seemingly freeze until you release the enter key...then it seemingly teleports you to the correct location.

Hmm...maybe I can put it this way. On 6.15 I could never outspam the map. On 6.40 I can almost never not outspam the map. This and this alone has made the map so undesireable ...that im sticking with 6.15 until I can find a solution. And yes I realize a lot of the really nice features of the new mapper....but sadly....they don't compete with this.
Please help if ya can...

--Grif--

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

Ok, when you say that you in 6.16 you get there on the map instantly and then it follows you room by room, which is it? Does it just move the current room marker from the room it was to the final room it should be, or does it move it room by room each time the MUD shows another room description?

Now, on 6.40, when you hold the enter key and it freezes, no MUD output is shown either while the directions are being sent? After releasing the enter key, does the mapper move the current location marker to the final room or does it go room by room after the MUD shows each room description?

Some of these you may have already answered, but I wanted to get a clearer picture of what you are describing.

Kjata

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Well first of all its 6.15 not 6.16 however I don't think it really matters too much.
When I say it goes room by room and is instant, I'm meaning there is no delay at all. Remember this is 'fast' speedwalking. What the mud is outputting is unchanged and irrelevant. This only concerns the mapper and the speed in which that little marker moves inside a maze of boxes. I can get these effects while not even connected to a mud.

Ok, I'll try to do some examples of what I mean by '"instant" and "1 by 1." Say you are in MS Word and decide to hold the 'f' key down. You will see all those 'f's print 1 by 1, however there is no delay, it is fluid and non choppy.
Maybe this is a good example: say you have 2 status bars ranging from 0% complete to 100% complete. They are both displaying info about the same installation or something. And they both take the same amount of time to get from 0 to 100 (this is key). The 6.40 one starts out and you see it jump to 10percent ....after a while it jumps to 100percent.
The 6.15 bar starts at 0 and smoothly hits every single percentage on its way up.
They both get the job done and in the same amount of time...however one is fluid and the other is choppy....6.40 is choppy and difficult to use while 6.15 is fluid and its easy to see where you are going.

I sure hope this helps ya visualize what I'm talking about.

--Grif--

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

So, what you don't like about the mapper in 6.40 is that it moves the current location marker in blocks of rooms at a time? Anyway, in my previous use of the mapper, I have never experienced this, so you might want to try e-mailing Zugg at [url="mailto:zugg@zuggsoft.com"]zugg@zuggsoft.com[/url] for more details. Right now he is away for Christmas, but you should get an answer shortly after he gets back.

Kjata

Magician Joined: 25 Oct 2000 Posts: 461 Location: USA

For grins, start a completely new map, unassociated with the maps you are currently using (ie., recreate the config and everything from scratch). See if the problem persists. It may have something to do with the conversion of your maps from 6.16 to 6.40...

Another thing to try is recoverting your maps manually using the zsConvert.exe program. If they were converted prior to you installing the latest MDAC, problems could still remain.

Do you have any special config? Are you using #TAGs at all?

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

quote:
For grins, start a completely new map, unassociated with the maps you are currently using (ie., recreate the config and everything from scratch). See if the problem persists. It may have something to do with the conversion of your maps from 6.16 to 6.40...

Some good ideas..
Why do yall keep thinkin im runnin 6.16? :-)
Did this a couple of times on different muds making different maps. Problem didn't persist at all. Then did this with 6.15 and converted the map, problem still did not persist.

quote:
Another thing to try is recoverting your maps manually using the zsConvert.exe program. If they were converted prior to you installing the latest MDAC, problems could still remain.

Done, problem presisted. I had converted after btw.

quote:
Do you have any special config? Are you using #TAGs at all?

Can't see #TAG having anything to do with fast follow mode. But reguardless, no I'm not using #TAGs yet (i know i will soon though) and no I'm not using any special configuration that i know of (you might wanna define 'special configuration' but I highly doubt I am)

I've been messing with it for quite a bit I'm really intent on getting to the bottom of this. I've been speculating that the only problem is the size of the map (I do not use zones b/c i prefer just to have an initial load time and not loading inbetween zones) First i need to make a correction to my first post, the map was nearly 8k and not 2.5k rooms. I have quite a few maps on different muds so I've run tests on various size maps (hey its what I do :-). they ranged: 100 to 8k to 20k to 30k. And well, it would seem that the larger the map got the slower the mapper got. After 8k the mapper didn't slow by much, but it did slow.

quote:
So, what you don't like about the mapper in 6.40 is that it moves the current location marker in blocks of rooms at a time?

yes and no. I was only using this as an example because it was the most noticable however it is nearly everything the mapper does that is slowed down. Deleting 2 rooms causes a progress bar to come up for example (done in 8k map). Further testing on the deleting of a reveals that it takes almost exactly 1 full second per room I want to delete (with or without links).

I hope this helps get to the bottem of this. Anything else you want me to test or try?

--Grif--

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

If everything else is also slowed down, then I suspect that it really is a problem with MDAC then. You say you have MDAC 2.7, but just having 2.7 isn't enough sometimes. There are some files that were included in 2.5, which were not in 2.7. You might also need to update the Jet drivers. However, I am not all that experienced with this, so maybe someone else could help you (the major problem is that Windows doesn't let you unistall MDAC just like that).

By the way, we keep saying version 6.16, because the latest public version before 6.40 is 6.16 not 6.15. Don't know why you have version 6.15 instead of 6.16, but 6.16 does contain some important fixes.

Kjata

Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:54 pm

Wasn't 6.15 a beta version that should have run out a while ago?

Lady C.

Magician Joined: 17 Oct 2001 Posts: 371 Location: USA

Yes, I had a similar problem with MDAC. I downloaded the newest version available, and certain files were not included that were needed. The solution was to install v. 2.5, then install 2.7. This gives you ALL the most up-to-date files.

Also, I believe that you'll find in the new mapper, once you get it working on your system properly, that load times between zones will be nominal. The new mapper is really much faster about those sort of things.

Belmyrddyn

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

6.15 was a public version, but 6.16 fixes many important bugs:

quote:
6.16 3-Mar-01 (PUBLIC version)

* Fixed major memory leak in multi-line scripts (triggers, aliases, etc)
* %ansi function now works without color name. So, %ansi(bold), %ansi(blink), etc now work
* #HIGHLIGHT command works again
* Removed  MXP security hole
* <!EL> and <!EN> are now recognized shortcuts for <!ELEMENT> and <!ENTITY> MXP commands
* #ALARM with ID no longer gives syntax error
* <!ATTLIST> now appends to attribute list rather than replacing
* Fixed error when changing button state, button type, or when saving a button.
* Deleting a link in the mapper with a selected bend in it no longer crashes
* Selecting MXP Elements page in Preferences no longer causes Index Out of Bounds error
* Closing MXP tags are now properly shown in Open mode
* Disabling individual command input triggers now works
* Fixed a hang when sometimes pressing Enter and the end of the line in the syntax editor
* #TEMP triggers are no longer saved in the settings file
* A trigger pattern of ^$ now properly matches a blank line.

Kjata

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Sorry been away for the holidays heh

Looking at those 6.15 errors...man...I've actually experienced quite a few of those. Especially the memory leak one :-) However doin a check for new version on 6.15 was always sayin it was the most up to date...but that doesn't really matter anymore.

I've tried everything you all have posted about the mapper speed... it has improved the speed some, but its nowhere near what I'm guessing it is suppose to be. In the next few days I'll be reformating and reloading everything so hopefully this will clear up this problem as well as other non-Zmud problems I've been having.

--Grif--

Novice Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 38 Location: USA

Grif.. just slow the hell down. nobody's gonna catch you anyway.

at least the mapper is working for you. I can create the first room, but the mapper ignores any movement whatsoever.

www.modmud.com
modmud.com:7500

"There is not one shred of evidence that life is supposed to be serious."

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Laugh Zero, long time no see :-)

Anyrate, I did the reformating and everything, I have the MDAC 2.7 RTM Refresh Release (installed 2.5 then updated jet drivers then upgraded to 2.7). Installed 6.40 and copied/converted the map on over. However, its still quite slow. I'm running out of ideas of what to try now. With a fresh install on everything you would think that this should work.

Also, after reloading things, I can't seem to be able to copy over my old 6.15 settings (triggers aliases ect...) to 6.40

hmmm, maybe I should just try to upgrade to windows 2k or something :-)

ps: changing the screensize here on msg board erases your msg. Not a major deal, just thought yall should know

--Grif--

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:42 am

Did you run your map through the zMapper "compact database" routine? I was getting shocking slowness on a small 2mb map until i compacted, then there was no hassle at all...

Why oh WHY did I have pass door on...

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

No, I haven't. However, I'm using the normal Zmud mapper and not zMapper. I wouldn't think I'd have to spend an extra 20 bucks to get it to go "normal" speed. zMapper looks cool and all, but for what I do, it is overkill and simply not worth getting.

--Grif--

Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:04 am

isnt there a free trial for zMapper?

Why oh WHY did I have pass door on...

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

There is a 30 day trial.

Kjata

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

ok, I downloaded the free trial of zMapper compressed my map from 11meg to 9 meg ....no difference that i could tell in speed.
Converted it again from the old 6.15 version of the map same thing...no difference in speed.
Sigh...thanks for the suggestion though...

I'd almost wanna say the problem is that its a big map being nearly 10meg and only 1 zone, however, this wasn't a problem beforehand with 6.15. The only major benifit I've seen so far (and yes I've seen quite a few smaller ones as well) with the new mapper is the HUGE decrease in initial load time. Cutting it from 6-7 minutes to under a minute.

Ya'll think it might be a 98 problem? I do have XP availible to me, I could change to it if need be.

--Grif--

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:36 am

Is there any way for me to get a copy of your map database to try? You can't email it to me because I have a 5MB limit on attachments. But if you can put it somewhere I could download it then I could grab it.

It's possible the trouble is because everything is in one zone, but I doubt it. The new mapper is pretty "zoneless" and doesn't really care how many zones you have.

Can you be more quantitative about how much difference in speed you are talking about here? I mean, is it taking seconds to move to a room, or is it just not as "smooth" as in the past.

Remember that we are working with a *real* database now in the new version, so there is a lot of Microsoft database stuff going on in the background in terms of caching and stuff. I have noticed that the database seems to cache in batches, so it will move fast for a while then pause while it loads more of the database. I don't have any control over this at all.

Yes, Deleting rooms takes longer. But how often do you do that? The database is optimized for speedwalking, not deleting. To delete a room in the database, you have to delete the room, delete the exit records originating from the room, change the exit record pointing to the room to null links, then update all of the indexes and constraints. This isn't fast. But it's necessary to preserve the integrity of the database.

Remember, the reasons for converting to the new map database format were:

1) zoneless maps, where speedwalking would work no matter where you were (cross zone speedwalking)
2) faster speedwalking
3) ability to customize map (using zMapper in this case)
4) standard database format allows more importing/exporting and more 3rd party utilities.

If you know anything about databases and programming, it's a minor miracle that the new mapper works as well as it does. It's truely pushing the Microsoft ADO database format beyond it's intended application. Most database applications are not nearly as interactive as the mapper is (dragging rooms to new locations, etc). So, if I have to sacrifice speed of stuff like room deletion, I'm willing to do that to get the other benefits.

In your case the load time is significantly faster because you only have one zone. For people who have lots of little zones, the load time for a zone is actually a bit slower than before. Basically, load time is now zone-size independant.

Novice Joined: 07 Feb 2002 Posts: 48 Location: Philippines

quote:
You might also need to update the Jet drivers.
Kjata

thanks to Grif for this post and to Kjata reply, the mapper is much faster now that i have upgraded the jet drivers.

ACC2002: Updated Version of Microsoft Jet 4.0 Available in Download Center
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q282010

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Ok, I've been doing a lot of testing and the suggestions that people have been giving me have improved the speed by quite a bit so I think that is no longer a problem (thanks guys). It still *seems* slow for reasons I explain below. However, after thinking about it for a while, I think my main problem now is not the speed but actually with how the new mapper updates your position. It updates your position after a set of moves instead of after every move. From a programmers perspective (I currently have a year under my belt) I can see this as a good thing that improves performance. However, from a pk players perspective I'm finding it nearly impossible to put in a lot of directions and keep track of where I am making the map virtually useless.

For example:
On 6.15 I could type in 'e' and hold enter down for a second or so and have it move my character 10-15 rooms. After each 'e' was sent to the mud the map would update and move my character east 1 room on the map. All of this was pretty instantaneous so I could see exactly where I was and be able to anticipate the next directions I need to put in. In 6.40 I could hold down the enter key as I did before and it will update my character position after those 10-15 'e's were sent to the mud making the map seemingly jump to your current location. This is what makes the mapper seem slow and clunky. While typed out here it doesn't seem like much of a difference, but I'll tell ya that when you are really playing the difference is HUGE.

Hmm...the above might have been a bit confusing :-) this is the general idea though

6.40
1) Put in a few directions
2) Pause so the map will update
3) The map just jumped to where you are so reorientate yourself and continue to put in directions.

6.15
1) Continuously put in directions without pause because the mapper is always up to date on showing you where you are at.

So, I think what it boils down to now is: Is there a way to make the mapper update after each direction is sent to the mud instead of after a group of directions?

P.S. Zugg, the 6.40 version of the map is nearly 10meg however the 6.15 version is only 1.3meg so it could be sent via e-mail. But, seeing as I think I’ve narrowed the problem down, I’m not sure sending the map will do us any good now. I will if you think it will be useful, just let me know.

--Grif--

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

Heh, this might all come down to one setting. Look in Edit|Map Properties under Speedwalking. Make sure that Center map after every movement is enabled.

Kjata

Beginner Joined: 22 Dec 2002 Posts: 13 Location: USA

Sorry, not that easy :-)

I always have this set (can't stand it otherwise)

--Grif--

Novice Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 38 Location: USA

If you need to post your map somewhere for Zugg, I have plenty of room on my server.

www.modmud.com
modmud.com:7500

"There is not one shred of evidence that life is supposed to be serious."

Newbie Joined: 13 Jan 2003 Posts: 2 Location: USA

Ok i just installed the new version of Zmud which would be 6.40. I have always been running 6.16 but since i installed the new version my mapper is so slow i can't use it anymore. If i try to delete a few rooms it takes a minute to process. Mapping extra rooms goes so slow that it isn't even possible. i put in a direction, see my output on the screen wait, wait some more, then i see the map move (as in the bars on the side move to the new location) then wait some more again and then it finally draws a room. It also suddenly stopped connecting my rooms even though i have the autoconnecting on for all directions. Running around the map is virtually impossible, because it takes so long for the map to update.

I have a map with 150 zones and a total of 19243 rooms going in all directions and portals and whatever I found.
I am using Windows XP with all it's drivers as up to date as i can and Microsoft Office 2000.

William