Zugg Software :: View topic - So much negativity...can't we all just get along?

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:32 pm

Is the anonymous nature of the Internet making society more negative? Or is society getting more negative and this just gets reflected on the Internet? Or has it always been like this?

I know that "flame wars" are nothing new. But several things have happened recently that just make me wonder why everyone is *so* negative in forums across the Internet these days.

In my first specific case, I had posted a technical question to the Delphi newsgroups. I got a few useful responses. But then one guy posts:
"Delphi is not the problem. The problem is with people who don't know proper programming methodology." Why does someone post something like that? This isn't an open public newsgroup. You actually need to be a registered member of the Code Gears Developer Network to post to their newsgroups. So this is some other Delphi Developer who took the time to post an insult? Why? Just to feel superior? Because he thinks that just because he has never personally run into a problem that the problem doesn't exist?

It's like people who post a problem they are having with some software and get a response like "It works fine for me, so obviously you are too dumb to use a computer". I try never to say something insulting like that to anyone who has a problem with my software. Even if it "works for me", I don't call anyone "stupid" because they are having a problem.

As a fan of all fantasy and sci-fi books, movies, games, etc, I've been following the recent Warhammer Online beta testing reports. The forums are full of "Warhammer is going to KILL WoW", or "Warhammer sucks because it's just the same as WoW", or "Therefore WoW must suck because it's just like EQ". Not only are most of the posts either blatant lies, misinformation, or just exaggeration, the point is that they are all negative!

Why does one game need to "kill" another? Can't both games be successful. I have hundreds and hundreds of books on my shelves. Just because I like Harry Potter books doesn't make my Tom Clancy books any less interesting. I like *all* of my books. Same with movies. I like Star Wars *AND* Star Trek (blasphemy, I know). Why have we become such a negative Win vs Lose culture?

First people whine that WoW is horrible and boring (millions of subscribers not withstanding). They whine that every new game is just more of the same, and yet seem to ignore the other many games that *are* different (EvE for example). Then when a new game comes out, they just bash it and suddenly WoW is the greatest game ever again.

If you post something good about a new game, you are called a "fanboi". If you post something negative you are called a "troll". We can't have a mature discussions of pros and cons because everything turns into a flame-war. Because obviously "I" am always right and "you" are always wrong.

Is it just because "on the Internet, nobody knows you are a dog", or is it something more inherent in human nature. Are we just a world of Win/Lose instead of Win/Win? Is it getting worse? Do younger people who grow up with the Internet think that this kind of negative communication is the proper way to interact with other people even outside of the Internet?

Most people I meet in-person would never act like this. So I'm hoping that it's not spreading from the Internet into real-life. I keep hoping that everyone online will stop a moment before posting to remember that there are real people on the other end of their post/email. I'll just keep hoping for the best...but sometimes I fear the worst.

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:45 pm

I don't think that they actually ARE more negative. But the anonymity does open people up to more fully express themselves (usually negatively) without fear of repercussion. It is that same fear which causes many people to hold their tongues when face to face.

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:05 pm

Well as Penny Arcade so well put it - http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

I try to be as nice online as in person, but it is easier to let slip your temper.

Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:23 pm

The anonymity is key. But it's not the anonymity of the poster that matters. We are less inhibited when we think they can be no tangible repercussions to our actions. And how can they be if we are unknown. There would be no way directly negatively impact us. An the likelihood of everyone being affected to reprimand me, or any entity being able to do is very unlikely. It would be the equivalent of shutting all of the Zuggsoft forums because there was a negative poster.

The other, and I believe often looked component, is the anonymity of whoever we are responding. The anonymity makes them abstract and easy to dehumanize and objectify without being objective. Instead we can extrapolate very little information to fit the broad strokes of preconceived notions. And if we disagree with their opinions, the likelihood of that preconception being positive is unlikely. It's this process that is responsible for most of man (in the sense of the species) most heinous actions including the holocaust, slavery, genocides, bigotry etc.

We are social creatures and the more limited our social interactions the easier it is to consider it apart from us; for the more we know a person the more we can recognize the similarities between then and ourselves.. Facial recognition is among the most power component of our cognitive abilities and social interactions. If we can not put a face to something, the hard it is to internalize it, the easier it is to set it apart. These conditions are not insurmountable but, with the anonymity of the internet and so few repercussions, there is little reason to try.

The internet allows for one of the worlds biggest social experiment there is and there is no one to control it. Therefore we see the best and worst of man.

Ask yourselves this and the answer may surprise you What is the worst thing you'd try, if you knew you could be assured there would no repercussion; if it would truly be a victimless crime.

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

It's not really anonymity so much as indifference weighed against the relationships you have with the site. Who cares if you get in trouble or offend someone if nobody can reach out and deal with you about it?

For example, on a forum about cats and dogs, there's little reason to announce his status as owner of the #1 third-party gaming client and other Zuggsoft products. Not only is that way off-topic and probably inviolation of solicitation policies, but dog/cat-lovers aren't necessarily MMO players. Unless Zugg was known there for some serious dog/cat stuff (breeding, etc) or for being the husband of such, there's little reason outside of personal philosophy for him to pull punches.

However, on Zuggsoft.com, he's a celebrity and the owner and can't get away with anything without somehow affecting his livelihood. While one day this could be theoretically moot, he's got his future to think about.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Wizard Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 1113 Location: USA

I agree that there is far too much negativity online, and it seems to stem solely from the anonymity the Internet allows us. YouTube comments are an excellent example of angry (and oftentimes stupid) people venting for no real reason at all.

Personally, I'm a much nicer, more helpful person online than in person. Smile

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:03 am

Technology attracts people with less than perfect social skills. A good number of people in technology fields show signs of autistic behavior. I know that I have a high functioning Asperger's Syndrome. The lower functioning autistic people show distinct signs of active anti-social behavior.

Once you get outside of technical discussion, you see a different sort of dynamic. It's mostly a social slugfest and has a different tone. It's mostly about the medium and its founding premises. I've found very few mediums to be of cooperative nature, and pleasant to be in.

Beginner Joined: 26 Oct 2000 Posts: 22 Location: Canada

To rehash some of what has already been said, before I make my main point. I agree, the Internet has no face and makes it easier to dehumanize the person on the other end. It makes it easier to be nagative towards another person with no recourse except haveing to read the reply post that follows.

My point; IMO we are inherently competitive beings. It shows in our cultural pasts. Cave men competed against one another for food. Tribes men competed against one another building the Pyramids. Countries competed against one another to reach space and put the first man on the Moon. We have always exhibited the wants, needs or urges to compete against each other.
If you're a believer of Darwinism, it is because of our survival needs to be the fittest in our environments.
If you're a believer of Archeology, the 10th planet and the written works of Zecharia Sitchin (like I am), it is because the Enki, Annunaki came to Earth, 100s of thousands of years ago, to mine mainly Gold and a few other minerals and metals, to save their depleteing Ozone (similar to what our own planet is currently experiencing) by atomizing it in their atmosphere. After the Dinosours were all gone they noticed a nifty semi-bipedal mammal walking around and edited it's DNA code to resemble their own (as in, In God's Image). To make a long story short, their purpose for doing this was to make a slave species that would mine the gold and the minerals for them. This may sound far fetched for you to accept, but if you are like I and have looked into the UFO phenomena, you would understand that the species named the Greys are also created by the Annunaki and they were created long before us. It is no suprise to me that the UFOs often gather in groups in the sky and perform geometrical competitions between one another.
If you're a believer in Science, it is because we tend to form a rough exterior personality due to the extreme amounts of seemingly random events that we must deal with in a day to day basis in order to survive. Sometimes we see things in a negative way and in return to respond to people in negative ways. Or perhaps certain people have a chemical imbalance and are not regulated by good judgment, self control and self preservation.

The Internet definately adds a certain amount of anonymity to the negativity being projected. In the end it is faceless agression which is the worst kind because you can't see the persons reactions to your words, if it were real life the person could be crying, perhaps people don't cry in online flame-wars but the point is made, people get hurt and they have to resort to replying to the post in order to fend off the negative person.

The Internet is NOT a negative thing or place. It is the negative attitude and personality of the person useing the internet that makes others they come in contact with feel negative. Again, IMO it is Not the internet that causes the negative things. I understand your post Zugg, you are right to question them and ask why are they negative.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:39 pm

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=20245

Up here in Missouri we have Lori Drew. She being charged with computer fraud in LA, for her part in setting up a fake MySpace account used to harass a 13-year-old neighbor and ultimately causing the girl to commit suicide.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

I can tell something that happened in the MUD I play. There was this roleplayer that played a pretty evil character. The roleplayer posted an amazingly rude message to another character on a board IC. That other player apparently took great offense, not realizing this was a roleplayed message, so when he finally got builder access on another character he made himself a super weapon to level fast enough to be able to beat up the roleplayer that had offended him. Of course he was found out and the levels were removed.

I suspect flames started by misunderstandings are very common.

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:26 pm

Wizard Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 1201

I hate to drudge up an old post, but I thought I would add my two cents here. I'm pretty much exactly like you Zugg. I'm always the lawful-good type in real life and when I play games I always seem to be a paladin. I have been in public service most of my life and worked in law enforcement.

I would like to state where I first agree with the comments being made. Much of the negativity is most certainly because the Internet has removed the human experience of social communication. One of the primary factors in how we communicate with each other is through body language. Computers on the other hand are cold calculating machines and nothing more. They cannot convey emotion. One cannot see how a comment may affect another or the expression on the face of the one making the comment.

However, I personally think the problem is much worse than people think. Sure there are some individuals that have always acted in this manner. Believe me I have pretty much seen them all, been called every name in the book, and heard just about every thing. Yet in the games I have played there is something that deeply disturbs me and that is how it is affecting our youth. They live and breathe in cyberspace these days and this is how they are learning to communicate. While playing these games the more mature players usually seem to end up leaving because of it. Take the IRE games for example and read the forums of games like Achaea. Almost every thread is a perfect example of this topic. Not only do many of those players behave in this cold and uncaring manner, they actually take pleasure in it. They feel it makes them popular and wanted or allows them to fit in amongst their peers. Now some may disagree, but anyone with a decent moral standard would not take part in the first place or even condone it. It's much like young teenage boys, or girls these days, who are inducted into gang life. Every human being makes a conscious choice on how they talk to or treat someone else, but how they make that choice is mostly represented by their core values and beliefs. When you don't have those...well you can see the results. With the Internet, everything is wide open to these kids. Nothing is hidden and nothing is refrained from, unless of course the parents actually care to see what their children are up to. I've spoken to many of them. I've listened to their discussions. Quite frankly it disgusts me and the fact that I do care, is precisely why it bothers me.

I could go on with a thousand other examples I suppose, but there is no point. Just know you are not the only one bothered by it and other people do notice the same trend.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:56 am

The negative naysayers get more attention than the positive posters who are only percieved as posting to "kiss butt".

Next time you see a flamewar, keep that in mind as you note how many positive posts mention the site owner as if they were a personal friend instead of using a fact-based framework.